I’m shutting down comments on this thread as it’s just getting nasty. Calm it down or I’ll start moderating!

‘…Thou shall not kill…’

‘…And you must not spare the life of any living thing. Lay them under the curse of destruction: Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, as Yahweh your God has commanded you…’

Yahweh then said to Moses, ‘Take vengeance on the Midianites. Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them. After that you will be gathered to your people.’

‘…Thou shalt not commit adultery…’

“Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her.” Deut. 28:30

‘ ‘Kill all the male children! And kill all the women who have known a man! But spare the lives of the young girls who have never known a man. Keep them for yourselves.’

‘…Thou shall not steal…’

The Israelites took the Midianite women and children as captives. They took their cattle, their flocks, and all their wealth.

‘…Thou shall not covet… thy neighbors wife…’

Deuteronomy 21:11 ‘And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;
21:12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
21:13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
21:14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

How should the Moabites be treated?

Do not fight against them or take their land.
Deuteronomy 2:9
And the LORD said unto me [Moses], Distress not the Moabites, neither contend with them in battle: for I will not give thee of their land for a possession; because I have given Ar unto the children of Lot for a possession.

Kill them and take their land.
Judges 3:28-30
And he [Joshua] said unto them, Follow after me: for the LORD hath delivered your enemies the Moabites into your hand….. And they slew of Moab at that time about ten thousand men … and there escaped not a man. Moab was subdued that day under the hand of Israel.

Is it necessary to keep the Sabbath?
Yes.
Exodus 16:29
The LORD hath given you the sabbath. … abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Exodus 20:8
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exodus 31:13-15
Six days my work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 34:21
Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest.

Exodus 35:2
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you a holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Leviticus 19:3, 30
Ye shall … keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 23:3
Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD.

Numbers 15:32, 36
And they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day …. And all the congregation brought him without the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.

Deuteronomy 5:12
Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee.

Isaiah 56:2
Blessed is the man … that keepeth the sabbath.

No.
Isaiah 1:13
The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity.

Matthew 12:2
Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

John 5:16
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

Romans 14:5
One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat and drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon; or of the sabbath days.

should I continue? there are lots of them.

what falsehoods did Buddha teach?

“Only 68 of 200 Anglican priests polled could name all Ten Commandments, but half said they believed in space aliens.” – Randy Cassingham

My response: Gee, and you accused me of being angry. You want an intellectual discussion yet you result to insults and foul language. I have no patience for people who resort to this sort of thing. I will continue to pray for your soul, that you would repent before it is too late, but I won?t waste my time with this sort of thing.

“How do you know the holy spirit didn’t ‘move on him’… ?”

Very simple, the Holy Spirit doesn’t say one thing to one person and something else to another. Buddha taught falsehood.

I guess you’re angry then…why? because I’m going to hell? I think that it pleases you to think so… I’m certainly not worried about it, obviously. If there is a heaven I’ll more likely be there than most. But I’d rather work on transforming the here and now just in case.

My response: I was not trying to be hateful at all. Just trying to snap you out of delusion into reality. I don’t know if you’re going to Hell, it’s not my job to decide and, for what it’s worth, I certainly hope you see the light. You say you’d rather work on transforming the here and now but what give you the right to decide what the here and now should be like? If God resigned and passed on the position to you, I, for one, did not get the memo. Perhaps you need to spend a little more time on ridding yourself of pretentiousness before you take on the task of changing the rest of the world to your idea of what’s better.

Naiya said: are you mad because because I ‘bad-mouthed’ an apostle by suggesting he was human?

My response: The apostles were human. Even Jesus was fully human although he was fully divine at the same time. (I know. It’s not logical. But don’t you think that a God that we could fully wrap our minds around would be a pretty pathetic God?)

If I’m upset at anything or anyone it’s what passes for education and intellectualism these days. Most of them are the blind leading the blind and, whenever someone tries to buck the trend of this silliness, they are called bigots or intollerant, the greatest sin against the liberal pantheon.

Naiya said: ‘Jesus Christ died for your sins’… so metphysically how did that work exactly? you don’t care how it worked, why it was so… you just believe what others tell you.

My response: There are some things which are beyond knowing on our own. They must be revealed to us. Anybody should be able to look at the world around us and know that it didn’t just pop into existance as the end result of random chance. There had to be some kind of creator. However, being the creator he must be even farther above us than we are to the amoeba. Fortunately, he chose to reveal himself to us.

Naiya said: *I find it disturbing how the Christian Mind has subtly aligned with right-wing WAR propaganda over the past few years.* I used to hear from most Christians that it was all about forgiveness and Love. Now its about ‘justice’ & punishment. hmmm… we’re moving backwards…

My response: Another example of you placing yourself in the position of the ultimate judge of what is right and what is wrong. At least the Church claims to be following what it believes God is telling it. You just come out and condemn it for not seeing things your way.

No one likes war. I wish the problems of the world could be settled in other ways. But mankind is in a fallen state and needs to be redeemed. (And no, I don’t need to be told that mankind is sinful. All I have to do is open a newspaper.) There is such a thing as a just war and I believe that our efforts in Iraq qualify as such.

Naiya said: You seem pretty sensitive about the Christian martyrdom. I can tell tell you have some victim identification issues.

My response: Not at all. I just think it is ridiculous to charge people who died for their faith for promoting that faith for personal gain.

Naiya said: We don’t need to give up family nor wealth to help people… so get off your soapbox.

My response: I never said that it was necessary in all cases. I just pointed out that a lot of the people you were attacking did do so. Maybe you have some issues.

My Reply: Pfff… Okay.
So if we’re still operating by the old testament, then rape and slaughter of virgin children are good things, Gary. Women are unclean and should be treated as sex-slaves to bear male children, and blood sacrifices are desired by God… It’s not only in Hebrews though. Almost all of them – Exodus, Deuteronomy etc. You say ‘God’ says… ‘Take it up with Him.’ The point is that God *didn’t* write it. Logic would have that. Barbarian guys did that stuff on thier own. We still have problems with barbarian guys, Gary… same old stuff. Maybe its because two of our main religions endorse the behavior. I was 10 years old when I first read the story of Moses commanding the Levites to kill the Midianites, save for the girl children who were virgins, and commanded the soldiers to sacrifice a portion of them to Yahweh and keep the rest for themselves… the number totals like 12,000 little Midianite girls being raped by soldiers at God’s command via Moses… wholesome family values worthy of bedtime story material. Bet that’d make a great movie, huh Gary?
It took me a number of years after that to stop having nightmares about Moses, and to realize that God is not really an Asshole, just that people like to say God’s responsible for the stupid shit they decide to do in order to conquer other people….
Again, I find no intelligence…

Gary Says: If you ask some physicists to define momentum or Einstein?s theory of relativity, you will get almost identical answers.

My Reply: No I won’t. They will be able to adjust their lesson to the capacity of the student. Either they will write the mathematical formula down and describe it according to KNOWN PHYSICAL LAWS or they will help you to understand those laws in a simpler way. they won’t use emotionally evocative, nebulous, persuasive or baby language … as you do – and they won’t be speaking from scripted rebuttals or from memorized sermons – as you do. their language will describe the mechanics of the theory, and they will use examples and metaphors to illustrate it. You have just regurgitated propaganda… and it does most certainly detract from its truthfulness. You are supposed to be describing a personal experience of Jesus. Maybe you’re not actually having one. Just borrowing someone else’s.

Mary asks Jesus after the resurrection ‘Are you Soul or Spirit (Pneuma)?’ and Jesus says ‘It is neither, but the nous between the two.’ meaning he was conscious and interacting with this plane of existence, with her… but merely essence – not solid. He was able to interact, even physically – but transcended the limitations of being flesh… he could disappear, appear, travel anywhere instantaneously… This is the same thing others have done. Jesus wasn’t the only one who ever did this…. Oh but the others were sinners because they didn’t worship a God that wanted His followers to kill babies & rape virgins… maybe they were fags.

Gary Says: Your resposes are not cross-cultural, they are the same relativistic nonsense that has poisoned our eductional system in recent years. It serves no purpose other than to make those who hold it feel good about how open-minded they are.

My Reply: No, what has poisoned our educational system is the religious right’s attack on science & intellectualism (not to mention schools in general, as well as the environment and pretty much everything else worthy of protecting.). That’s why you people cannot even formulate your own verbage to describe the crucifixion or anything else for that matter. It’s only nonsense because *you* don’t understand it. You’re afraid of books… You want to bring back leeches & bloodletting and the stork, burn witches & books, and for our children to be so stupid that they are easily brainwashed by your old testament hoodoo-hate crap.

Gary Says: I was very careful to avoid saying that the accuracy of the Bible?s prophecies prove anything. I said that, in the end, it is faith, but that things like the prophecies make that leap of faith less precipitous. I have never heard of any fullfilled prophecies from any of the sources you mentioned. Please provide details so that your claim can be validated.

My Reply: Yeah, like you’re qualified to ‘validate’ Mayan, Hindu or Hopi prophecy. How arrogant… DO some research. It’s not exactly hidden information.

Gary Says: If you had a sharp pain in your lower right side, would you go to the hospital to have a doctor check your appendix? Would you also go to some shaman to encircle you with candles and dance the demon out? I doubt it and that is so terribly uninclusive of you. How uninformed of you to reject consideration of the world?s other medical traditions.

My Reply: No, Id probably go to my Naturopath or Chinese Practitioner first. I have not taken prescription or over the counter medications since I was a child (when, at my mother’s insistence). It is not likely I’ll ever have appedicitis anyway. If I were given the choice between Western Medicine and a Shaman in that case, however – since I would need visual diagnostic analysis for probable surgery, I would likely choose the Allopath who would be able to provide it. I might choose the Shaman in a different case, however.

Gary Says: Just because alternatives exist, doesn?t bestow any validity on them.

My Reply: You are correct. That is why there is investigation, intelligent discussion, testing and communication to find and substantiate practices and methods that are logical, healthy and beneficial. For instance, Chinese Medicine predates Western medicine by several thousand years, and there is ample evidence of course that it is quite effective, and that treatments have no side effects and do not require invasive treatments compared with western medicine. western medicine is best if you need the invasive treatment, however. Old testament blood sacrifices and virgin-raping to appease the bloodthirsty patriarchal War-God Yahweh is not even worthy of anymore intelligent discussion especially as another lame comparison postulated by a funda-mental midget… You just hate gay people and are afraid of women and want to keep the old testament stuff in circulation for those reasons. admit it, Gary ;)

Gary Says: Additionally, you have no idea of my background. For all you know I spent the 1970s in India studying under some guru. I didn?t but you don?t know that. You just make rash assumptions about the people here because it helps you ?prove? your little worldview…

My Reply: Naw Gary, I could tell right away the only reason you’d ever go to India was if your plane crashed there or to convert heathen scum. Seriously, your language gave it away. I think you spent the 1970′s being an uptight anal-retentive asshole, lol. I don’t need to prove anything. The world is the world open your eyes and see it for yourself.

Gary Says: The Church does not have to change to fit you. You either take it or leave it as it is.

My Reply: This is true. If you people don’t destroy the planet in your race for domination of everything, I can watch from the sidelines while it all burns down to the ground, a behemoth’s long struggle to keep power in spite of all it’s inconsistencies, hate-filled reasonings, atrocities, broken mechanisms, etc… the struggle will surely end if it doesn’t change. I’m not for throwing the baby out with the bath-water… but it’s not my baby, its yours.

(I just saw that) Is that the message of His crucifixion, really?? I would wager my soul that it’s not. I guess I am wagering my soul.

Humanity cannot thrive peacefully with themes of vengefulness & violence. We have not so far. If the Christianity you speak of is salvatory, should it not provide methods for reconciling our ‘failings’ other than ‘the shedding of blood’? Why would Christ die to make that statement?? I say YOU want to make that statement. Not Him.

Gary’s response: The requirement for the shedding of blood was God’s idea, not mine. If you object to it, your problem is with Him. It was God who instituted the Old Testament sacrificial system. Get a Bible and read Hebrews chapter 9. The requirement for the shedding of blood is quite clear there. It is not my idea at all and it is completely absurd to think that it was.

Naiya said: i think when someone says ‘christ died on the cross at calvary for our sins’ and ‘the holy spirit moves on men’ or ‘calling us into relationship with God’ they are using phrases which did not originate with them, but have heard and parroted over and over – they have lost their meaning culturally because of overuse, misuse and laziness.

My response: The fact remains that these are the best descriptions for the realities they represent. Did you notice, however, that you are contradicting yourself. First you accuse me of inventing the view that Jesus had to die for our sins to be forgiven. Now I’m parroting someone else. You can’t have it both ways.

I’ll save you the trouble of having to figure it out. I am using the terminology that was used when I was taught these truths. However, even if I am using a learned set of phrases to speak of a truth, it does not detract from its truthfulness. If you ask some physicists to define momentum or Einstein’s theory of relativity, you will get almost identical answers. The same would be true if asked a mathematician to tell you the Pythagorean theorem. That does not mean that these things are figments of their imagination; it means that those who discuss such things settled on what they feel is the best way to describe it.

Naiya said: i’m not saying its not true that Christ knowingly committed an act of self-sacrifice to prove that God finds us worthy, or to prove that death is not the end and we can conquer it, or to ensure that a tradition of forgiveness and non-judgment continues in the hearts of people, or for whatever reason. but we need to define fully what we mean so as to engage in intellectual discussion.

So far there has been no intellectual discussion. You have not thus far provided me with one.

My response: Maybe the problem is that you just don’t want to believe. I suspect that you would find some reason to not believe even if we had Sts. Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas here.

Naiya said: With my posts, i have only offered some cross-cultural context and offered some related ideas which could hopefully be regarded as an alternate point of view that supports *inclusiveness* of the world’s other spiritual traditions. To just accept that Christ meant what an interested 3rd party says he meant is lazy (and dangerous for you, if what you believe about Hell is true)…

My response: Your resposes are not cross-cultural, they are the same relativistic nonsense that has poisoned our eductional system in recent years. It serves no purpose other than to make those who hold it feel good about how open-minded they are.

If you had a sharp pain in your lower right side, would you go to the hospital to have a doctor check your appendix? Would you also go to some shaman to encircle you with candles and dance the demon out? I doubt it and that is so terribly uninclusive of you. How uninformed of you to reject consideration of the world’s other medical traditions. Don’t you understand that the sugeon, an interested third party, will make enough money off the operation to spend a weekend in the Bahamas? How lazy of you. Of course I’m being sarcastic but it does show the flaws in your reasoning. Just because alternatives exist, doesn’t bestow any validity on them. Additionally, you have no idea of my background. For all you know I spent the 1970s in India studying under some guru. I didn’t but you don’t know that. You just make rash assumptions about the people here because it helps you “prove” your little worldview.

Naiya said: Regarding your claim that predictions in the bible prove it’s superiority in accuracy – divination has been used since the beginning of time (no direct ‘act of God’ necessary, just an ability one can develop that requires nothing more than deep study.) And there are several prophetic manuscripts which have proven to be amazingly accurate. The Hopi, the Egyptians, the Mayans and the Hindus have very specific predictions which have so far all come to pass… and remain in the working, like the revelation of John -and- they all are in agreement with each other, despite thousands of miles and years between… Interestingly the Mayans have based a number of their calenders on these events as they correspong to cosmic, or galactic events, such as the precession of the equinoxes and the upcoming alignment of the galactic center of the milky way to our own sun in December of 2012. (The Mayans have 17 calendars all of which are more accurate and larger in scope than our own).

My response: I was very careful to avoid saying that the accuracy of the Bible’s prophecies prove anything. I said that, in the end, it is faith, but that things like the prophecies make that leap of faith less precipitous. I have never heard of any fullfilled prophecies from any of the sources you mentioned. Please provide details so that your claim can be validated.

Naiya said: The fact that a work of fiction is causing so much uproar in the Christian community is telling. If there were no doubt, then what is there to defend so vehemently? Surely most Christians have some issues with the corruptions of the church – and there have been many many many abuses of power, corruptions and violations.

Why not stop denying it and help heal the church’s relationship to the world community – with women, with other faiths… So much is at stake…

It’s time for a good house-cleaning.

Until it does, then the church is not in alignment with Christ… and therefore it is Anti-Christ.
(And yes, that’s exactly what I mean.)

My response: This is a very telling statement. It shows to me that your motivation is emotional outrage. You don’t like the way the church is and you want to remold it into something more to your liking. Guess what. That’s not your job. The Church does not have to change to fit you. You either take it or leave it as it is.

(I just saw that) Is that the message of His crucifixion, really?? I would wager my soul that it’s not. I guess I am wagering my soul.

Humanity cannot thrive peacefully with themes of vengefulness & violence. We have not so far. If the Christianity you speak of is salvatory, should it not provide methods for reconciling our ‘failings’ other than ‘the shedding of blood’? Why would Christ die to make that statement?? I say YOU want to make that statement. Not Him.

RE: Rhetoric
Rhetoric can be described as the persuasive or “suasory” function of all human action, including symbolic action like language use. Both the terms “rhetoric” and “sophistry” are also used today in a pejorative or dismissive sense, when someone wants to distinguish between “empty” words and action, or between true or accurate information and misinformation, propaganda, or “spin,” or to denigrate certain forms of verbal reasoning as spurious…

far as I can tell, i haven’t described anything in a ‘symbolic’ sense, and my words are my own, linguistically, thank you very much – i’m not indoctrinated to any particular method of believing in God. Since there are multiple meanings for the word ‘rhetoric’, i am clarifying what i meant with my criticism by giving the above definition. i think when someone says ‘christ died on the cross at calvary for our sins’ and ‘the holy spirit moves on men’ or ‘calling us into relationship with God’ they are using phrases which did not originate with them, but have heard and parroted over and over – they have lost their meaning culturally because of overuse, misuse and laziness.

i’m not saying its not true that Christ knowingly committed an act of self-sacrifice to prove that God finds us worthy, or to prove that death is not the end and we can conquer it, or to ensure that a tradition of forgiveness and non-judgment continues in the hearts of
people, or for whatever reason. but we need to define fully what we mean so as to engage in intellectual discussion.

So far there has been no intellectual discussion. You have not thus far provided me with one.

With my posts, i have only offered some cross-cultural context and offered some related ideas which could hopefully be regarded as an alternate point of view that supports *inclusiveness* of the world’s other spiritual traditions. To just accept that Christ meant what an interested 3rd party says he meant is lazy (and dangerous for you, if what you believe about Hell is true)…

Regarding your claim that predictions in the bible prove it’s superiority in accuracy – divination has been used since the beginning of time (no direct ‘act of God’ necessary, just an ability one can develop that requires nothing more than deep study.) And there are several prophetic manuscripts which have proven to be amazingly accurate. The Hopi, the Egyptians, the Mayans and the Hindus have very specific predictions which have so far all come to pass… and remain in the working, like the revelation of John -and- they all are in agreement with each other, despite thousands of miles and years between… Interestingly the Mayans have based a number of their calenders on these events as they correspong to cosmic, or galactic events, such as the precession of the equinoxes and the upcoming alignment of the galactic center of the milky way to our own sun in December of 2012. (The Mayans have 17 calendars all of which are more accurate and larger in scope than our own).

The fact that a work of fiction is causing so much uproar in the Christian community is telling.
If there were no doubt, then what is there to defend so vehemently? Surely most Christians
have some issues with the corruptions of the church – and there have been many many many abuses of power, corruptions and violations.

Why not stop denying it and help heal the church’s relationship to the world community – with women, with other faiths… So much is at stake…

It’s time for a good house-cleaning.

Until it does, then the church is not in alignment with Christ… and therefore it is Anti-Christ.
(And yes, that’s exactly what I mean.)

I guess you’re angry then…why? because I’m going to hell? I think that it pleases you to think so… I’m certainly not worried about it, obviously. If there is a heaven I’ll more likely be there than most. But I’d rather work on transforming the here and now just in case. ;)

are you mad because because I ‘bad-mouthed’ an apostle by suggesting he was human?

‘Jesus Christ died for your sins’… so metphysically how did that work exactly? you don’t care how it worked, why it was so… you just believe what others tell you.

*I find it disturbing how the Christian Mind has subtly aligned with right-wing WAR propaganda over the past few years.* I used to hear from most Christians that it was all about forgiveness and Love. Now its about ‘justice’ & punishment. hmmm… we’re moving backwards…

You seem pretty sensitive about the Christian martyrdom. I can tell tell you have some victim identification issues.

We don’t need to give up family nor wealth to help people… so get off your soapbox.