Sin’s Deceitfulness
by Suzanne Benner
**Here is an Online Bible Study that will help you experience a deepening fellowship with God enabling you to grow in Christian maturity. http://thelife.com/study/knowjesuspersonally.html?section=lesson4&ft=BSG-OS
“See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.” (Hebrews 3:12, 13).
Have you started to believe the lies of our sinful world?
Sin lies to us saying there is an easier way; we deserve better; it’s not going to hurt anyone; it won’t matter just this once.
Romans 7:11 says, “For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.”
We shouldn’t be surprised by the deceitfulness of sin, because Jesus described Satan as the father of lies. “…there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” (John 8:44)
Letting go of sin: Exhale sin, inhale the Holy Spirit
Needing a timeout with God?: Take our Life Lesson
The Bible warns us repeatedly not to be deceived:
• “Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient” (Ephesians 5:6).
• “I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments” (Colossians 2:4).
• “Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers” (James 1:16).
Attitudes that glorify self entice us; behaviors that bring instant gratification appeal to us, but they are deceitful. They promise things that they cannot deliver.
True joy, fulfillment, and acceptance can only be found in Christ. Thus we need to be grounded in the truth in order to withstand the lies of Satan.
~Holy God, help me to be self-controlled and alert because I know the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. (1 Peter 5:8) Open my eyes to the lies that Satan tells, so that I will not be deceived.
Questions: What is an example of a lie that you have believed? What truth from God’s Word do you need to replace it with?
About the Author: http://talk.thelife.com/experience/devotionalforwomen/authors/suzanne-benner/
Tags: deceitfulness, sin, sinful, unbelieving
94 Responses to “Sin’s Deceitfulness”
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Hi guys! Well, as far as ‘amp’ goes I think it has something to with the actual computer program and is an ‘internal’ type command that shows up.
Man the comments are wonderful.
Someone asked me to comment on the book, “The Song of a Passionate Heart” based on Psalm 23 that my husband gave to me a couple of weeks ago.
IT is tailor made for this discussion! God’s timing is always perfect. Praise HIM!
In one place the author is discussing Solitude. Here are a few quotes.
“Begin small and start promptly.”
“Solitude begins with a time and place for God, and him alone. If we really believe not only that God exists, but that he is actively present in our lives – healing, teaching, and guiding – we need to set aside a time and space to give him our undivided attention.”
“Jesus said, “Go into your room, close your door and pray to your Father, who is unseen.” Matthew 6:6
“Solitude is where we are least alone and where our deepest loneliness can be relieved. It’s a healing place where God can repair the damage done by the noise and pressure of the world. The more you visit it, the more you will want to return.”
And so it seems we are all saying: solitude in our relationship with Him and then we can begin to Practise Living in HIS Presence through out the rest of the day?
And YES your comments on seeing Him in the breath of a new born, in nature,
YES to having willing and open eyes and ears to hear and receive!
Linda R, bless you as you seek Him.
Psalms 19 says, ‘The heavens declare the glory of God…….” So right Patti, that in peace and quiet one can glory in HIM and feel HIS touch in our lives thru creation!
The wonder of it all!
Hello Sunshine! Yes, HE loves it when we are asking questions. Inquisitive kids………HE longs to teach us doesn’t HE! Praise HIM!
So what practical steps do you take to find your personal ‘prayer closet?’ What type of discipline do you practise to make this a life changing habit to draw close to HIM?
What other questions does this discussion raise in your mind/heart/spirit?
fran so glad to see your comment here today. i always enjoy them so
sharon b
Andi I also wondered what “amp” meant as I have no idea! Someone please tell us! I think it is Important set a Special time alone with just you & God each day if possible as it is a time where you can read His Word and sit and meditate and listen to what He has to say to you. If we don’t spend time reading Gods Word how are we going to get to know Him better & grow in Him. But I Strongly Believe that He comes along with me every second of every day & night. He never leaves me & I trust & depend on Him to be with me all the time night & day and if that isn’t enough He has His Angel watching over me 24/7. What a Wonderful God We Serve!!! Hugs Linda !!!
I believe that we do have to have some quiet time for God alone, but that we don’t leave Him behind when we leave the prayer closet anymore than we leave Him behind when we leave church on Sunday.
We have been told to pray without ceasing, and although it may not be realistic to be verbalizing prayer at all times, it is a realistic goal to strive to be aware of God’s Presence at all times and to have an ongoing conversation with Him throughout the day.
And maybe even more important to be sending up silent prayers in the midst of our conversations with others where His help is needed to find the right words or keep the right attitudes.
I believe I just posted my comment on the wrong devotional. Please accept my apology…yes I am blonde
I believe I just posted my comment on the wrong devotional. Please accept my apology…
Andi…tho I think it is good to set aside time to be quiet before the Lord…I agree with you…that we can know the “wonder” of the Lord most anytime.
I have sensed Him in the quietness of my mind…or the scent and breath of a newborn.
I have known His wonder when I have been on a lake, fishing, sensing the calmness of the water, on a golf course in catching the scent of freshly cut grass.. the ocean compared to my seemingly insignificance against it’s force and in the mountains as they reach toward heaven in all their beauty and glory.
There have been so many times…even in a gentle shower or a beautiful, yet threatening thunderstorm.
He is everywhere…I just need to keep my heart quiet, a worshipful spirit…and take notice of His beauty all around me.
Thank you, Suzanne for this beautiful devotion, that encourages us to think on the His Glory all around us.
Dianne,
Well well, LOL!!! Yup, you know the book. Have you read the one on Marriage then as well? I bet you have.
Can anyone please tell me what ‘amp’ means? One of the ladies uses it a lot and I’m not sure of it’s meaning. Does everyone know that LOL means ‘Laughing out loud?’
I feel that a wonder of God is that HE is not tied down to formula’s and rituals. HE will meet w/us anytime and anywhere.
Guyon loved the Lord no matter her circumstances and in all things.
Brother Lawrenece is anotjer contemplative who learned he could communictae w/God and HIS wonders no matter what he was doing. He was a friar in a kitchen and garden. He learned to worship God when he was washing out the pots and making dinner! He was called, ‘Brother of the Pots and Pans,’ or something similar.
Thru his book on seeking to stay in God’s presence I learned that I could be peeling potato’s and still having intimate times w/our Lord.
I tend to agree w/the gals who have learned that ‘variety’ in our times w/HIM is the elixar that brings ‘freedom’ to our relationship w/HIM and our lives!
Question: Do you think we need to always set aside ‘time’ rather than inviting God to come and enter into our daily life?
Looking forward to all your comments! : -)
Andi
Dear Dianne, I too am so very excited for what The Lord is doing and will continue to do in your life. I will be praying for you & be believing for Great Things To Come! Please keep us up to date & know we all love you and care for you Deeply!!! God Is So Good! Hugs Linda!!!
Dearest Dianne :-}
Rejoicing with you and believing HE will help and His unconditional Love will shelter you as He does, too! You are very special!! (((Dianne)))
Dianne, I am so excited to hear about the blessings that God is pouring out on you! :) Praise Him for tenderly wooing you out of the cave you had sought refuge in (remember Elijah?) He loves you so much, Dianne, and wants freedom for you, dear sister and friend! Please do keep us posted on your progress, as we share this burden with you, and will rejoice with you with each victory, big and small! You go, girl! ;)
P.S. Patti, please don’t feel bad about bringing up the subject; you needed to :-}.
Thank you so much, Marilyn, Fran, LindaR., Romel, Margaret, Andi, and all of the rest of you wonderful ladies!
I must’ve been feeling your prayers and God must’ve been working greatly yesterday and last night, as I was feeling encouraged, and whenever I thought to myself “I have BPD,” it had the emotional-burden level of saying something like “the sky is blue.” No guilt, no shame, no internal squirming, no nothing like that :-}. It was just “something that is” to me. I like that :-}!
My thoughts and feelings might not stay that way as I get into the details of doing the work on my illness, but for now, the awareness is amazing!
And I went to bed feeling closer to God, grateful, and wanting to fall asleep spending time with Him :-}.
I wrote the e-mail to the clinic, and was able to edit out statements that might make the counselors feel uncomfortable before I sent it (so, I did send it).
I had written things that could have been taken as criticism of them, their site, and their facility, only because I was afraid and trying to protect myself (not trying to put them down)–at the same time I was reaching out for help!
This is one of the kinds of things I do that I don’t see on my own power, and that I have recently been told I do. So seeing it happening in my draft is itself a miracle, and I was able to act on it :-}!
My mom also called yesterday, and she told me that she had a strange experience overnight (the night I wrote to you about this). She said she woke up to hearing a voice that she thought was coming from the answering machine, but when she played the messages back, there was no new message. She also looked outside, and she couldn’t see anyone there either.
Mom recently told me she had a similar experience (I think this was in February) only this time she said it was my voice she heard.
What happened was that I was in small group and had shared (or had been sharing) something spiritually deep (I think it was about my difficulty with the idea of an “Abba” God because of what my father had been like), ans my cell phone went off. I picked up the phone and saw her on the caller ID, so I didn’t answer the call (group was almost over). When I called her back, she told me that something strange had happened; she’d heard me talking on the phone before she left her message (I don’t have a greeting set up on it).
Also, my cell phone would not have accepted a message if I had accidently opened it up (it’s a flip phone) enough for her to have heard me speaking in small group, so she could not have actually heard me.
So that is twice that when I was experiencing something very deep spiritually, my mom “heard” something that apparently didn’t actually happen materially.
Now, my mom is NOT given to believing in these kinds of experiences! She is a Christian, but has always been in a traditional mainstream denomination that teaches that miracles and other such spiritual phenomena don’t happen in this day and age because Christianity is no longer new, and such things are no longer necessary in order to spread God’s word.
She is also a very intelligent, practical, logical, “sensible,” scientifically-oriented kind of person, and has always dismissed and even mocked any talk or presentation of “supernatural” or “paranormal” topics as being nothing more than human ignorance, stupidity, or deceit at worst, and wishful fantasy at best.
So I doubt that it would even cross her mind that there could be something spiritual going on here; she probably thinks these events were “neural glitches,” thyroid symptoms (she recently developed hyperthyroid) or a “half-asleep dream” kind of event.
But I think it is interesting that they both happened around a time when I was sharing about one of the deepest of spiritual issues that I have and that she had/still has no idea about what I was doing around those times.
When the first incident happened, I thought about it for a little while, and then was cautioned (by one of my fellow church members) that I needed to be careful about who the source of the incident might be. I also got direction during quiet time that I was giving too much of my attention to satan’s (I don’t dignify that name with a capital letter) side of warfare, and to not put too much weight on it.
Now, it has happened again, so, my awareness level is a little higher than it was last time. I am not going to say which side is behind my mom’s experiences, because I don’t know, but I will at least note it as being interesting.
Could there be spiritual warfare going on around my being healed of, or having my burden lightened from, this disorder? You bet. That’s what I think, anyway. Should I obsess about it? Probably not. But in case it has meaning to any one of you ladies, I thought I would at least share what happened :-}.
Andi, you asked if I’d heard of “When to Say YES, When to Say NO To Take Control in Your Life.” As a matter of fact, I have :-}. I was the “facilitator” of two rounds of this study at my church a couple of years ago. I was directed (through a series of “co-incidences”) to do that, and when I approached our adult discipleship pastor about it, he was for it.
The problem was, it was mainly for my benefit (I needed it)that I asked, and I was the one who got to present it. That was kind of OK with me, but when he asked me if I saw that study as a being a closed study or one open to the whole church, I said the whole church (I saw a need for that).
Now, I was separated from my husband at the time because of domestic violence, and he had just been baptised and had joined the church. I hadn’t seen him as joining this group, but he did. I had introduced him to the book, and when he heard I was going to do the study, he decided he wanted (and “needed”) to attend, too.
I couldn’t just single him out as not being allowed to attend when everyone else in the church was allowed, so I reluctantly didn’t say or do anything to stop him.
That really cut down on my feeling of safety during the group and it interfered with my personally benefitting from as much as I could have if he wasn’t there. But I did the group anyway since there was that much interest in it in the church.
The book cautions that the work involved in applying the principals taught in the book should not be done without a good “boundary-loving” support system in place, and I didn’t have one because of my husband’s presence in the group, and because my other support system at the time didn’t include many Christians (those who were either didn’t want to do the study, or they couldn’t because of other commitments).
So, I didn’t get all that I could have out of that study, but I did get one important thing: this study is where I first made the an association between my personality disorder and my spiritual sickness! The two have much in common.
So, you are right on about this, Andi! It might be that somehow the book will be brought back into the picture through the counseling that I am hoping I will get :-}.
So, I am now waiting for word from the counseling center as to whether they would be willing to take me on. I will keep you ladies posted :-}.
Love, Me
P.S. Oh yeah, I also included, in an honest but general kind of way, what has happened so far as a praise report (on a communication card) in church yesterday morning.
Thank you again, SO much ladies, for your prayers and support :-}}}!
Humble yes and it keeps us Joyful! With all that God calls us a Saint! Ephesians 1:1 I have to admit there have been times I didn’t consider myself a saint! Who am I? A saint! I’m God’s child, I have direct access to God through the Holy Spirit! It changes your perspective- behavior when you know whose you are! Now when I go out I ask the Lord to make me a good representative of Jesus. I don’t want anything to discredit the name of Jesus.
Well i have checked my spelling and grammar and I think it is correct!
Margaret, LOL!!! Keeps us humble I think?
Glad to hear I am not the only one who needs to proof read!Andi! Sometimes my typing is challenged!
Whoops, Dianne, please make that ‘updated!’ Should proof read! LOL
For this Company of Wonderful Women!
Your care and concern for each other is such a blessing! I too rally around Dianne and thank her for her transparency.
Dianne, May God continue to lead and guide you as you work thru this disorder! Will you please keep us undated regarding this?
Have you ever heard of the book:
When to Say YES, When to Say NO To Take Control in Your Life?
Written by Dr. Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend, 2 Christian doctor’s.
They also have one, “Boundaries in Marriage.”
Based upon HIS Living Word, to help us to be all that HE intends us to be, caring & loving others yet not allowing others to walk all over us.
Patti, SO glad to be getting to know you more & to the other women as well!
Andi
Hi Dianne I just want you to know how much I admire you for being so open and honest with all of us & for trusting us with your most deepest feeling. Dianne you are a precious sister in Christ & I believe that with all my Heart. I want you to know that you will be in my prayer book for daily prayers but lets pray now too.
Dear Heavenly Father I am so thankful for our sister Dianne who has come before us opening up her heart to each of us and trusting us so, Lord just Minister to her I Pray, You see her Every need and I am just going to ask in Faith Believing that you are going to meet and Heal each and everyone one of them as we know that you can as your word says you are the same yesterday, today and forever. Lord we Know you healed in Jesus day and we Know you can & do Heal today so I just Pray for Complete Healing & Complete 100% Assurance of her Salvation Give her Peace Lord & just fill her with your continual presence. In Your Holy Name I Pray! Amen & Amen! Hugs, Linda!!!
Hi, Dianne, I have to fine the ladies on the blog to be surpportive and helpful. It takes courage to share! Good for you! There are so safe place to do so! I am glad you could and we love you!
Dear Dianne :-}
Just want you to know that am lifting you in loving prayers and believing in HIS HELP for you in all these circumstances! Remember always Jeremiah 29:11, Romans 8:39..and powerful Jeremiah 32:17 (NOTHING is too hard for Him).
It took great courage on your part to share the things you did here today..and HE WILL HELP.
You wrote a powerful thing today and I humbly quote:
“In 1995, I surrendered “every fiber of my being” to Jesus Christ/God/The Holy Spirit. Around that time, I had an experience of very distinctly feeling God hold me in His lap and wrap His arms around me, and tell me that He loves and accepts me exactly as I am–even with my personality disorder”.
Remember always, dear Dianne, that HE does “love and accept us ALL exactly as we are”! And every last one of us in human encasement today fall short of His Glory (Romans 3:23)!!.. Billy Grahams powerful Altar Call hymn “Just as I Am”…sooooooo true and for us all. Never, ever doubt your worthiness in Him. And am so sorry for those who have judged you and others going through this kind of challenge. But take heart, dear girl, HE is still on HIS Throne..and will help! Keep seeking Him, listen for His still small voice regarding the direction HE has for you, and know that all of us here love you, too! And we join together in the powerful bond of agreement for you. And? Proud of you for reaching out to that counselling. He delivers many through the sincere ones! And? Will lead you to just the right group.
And, dear Rommel..There’s no “exclusivity” with our Lord..He loves one and all. And ANY chat room that would exlcude you based on their “exclusive club” as Marilyn expressed well? YOu don’t want that kind of affiliation. Am certain, along with Marilyn, this grieves HIS Holy Spirit.
Forgive this long sharing. I don’t often comment any more..but am with all of you in heartfelt prayers! Don’t get to do individual answers..But lifting all prayer requests on days HE leads me here for that!
And?! Let’s Praise for Barbara C’s Victory in her Wedding Day April 4th! And stand on Romans 4:17 for her believing, before we see, complete delivery from the BDD sitation and trusting HIM to reveal the steps to that. HE will lead her beautiful spirit. And by His stripes, We are ALL healed..Isaiah 53:5..Barbara stands on that!! And? We will believe for her books to be published and help others making that journey..that the Lord WILL help! She has a loving, sincere heart to share HIM and help others.
Patti said a deep and necessary thing today..”The important thing is our personal relationship with HIM”. It should be our daily work to seek that first and foremost..remembering that our Great Father in Heaven has a personl growth plan for each of us designed for each individual that HE created! Patti, am believing for you, that after a long life here in His Service, You will most definetly join him..And peace will come about your Mom, too. You loved her and are hard on yourself..But where she is today..She is gloriously healed and you will be, too, for rest of your earthen days! And? He has many more for you, dear Sister. Accept His forgiveness.
HIS very coming changed things forever. His Salvation is a free gift that cannot be earned…least some “would” give themselves credit… or set themselves aside seeking Exclusivity.
Praise YOU, Father, that in your Kingdom the servant is revered… In your infinite and Divine wisdom..YOU removed our human, and sometimes misguided ways from getting in the way. You taught us all by your Servant ways though you are God’s son.. and left for posterity: “And he sat down and called the twelve and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all”…Mark 9:35. Help us all, dear Father, to serve humbly and be called Your Servants…Amen and Amen.
Dear Laides,
I am very sorry to have brought up the topic of predestination. The important thing is our personal relationship with Jesus.
Please forgive me…..and thank you for your encouragement…all of you…..
.
Amen Marilyn. Father, I joined Marilyn and the rest of our sisters who are praying for the healing and deliverance of Dianne from this condition that oppresses her. We pray that YOU will surround her with your power and love at all times, in CHRIST name Amen.
Dianne, I had put you in my prayerlist.
Hi Romel H! It’s very sad, and most surely disaapointing to God, when believers allow non-essential doctrine, i.e. doctrine that is not integral to one’s salvation, to interfere with the fellowship of believers. Predestination is one such tenet of the Christian faith that has been known to cause denominational splits in churchs. It has the great risk of producing a spiritual pride that is offensive to God! As we do not know whom will receive Christ as Lord and Savior, we are to be God ambassadors here on Earth, sharing His love and the Good News with all those He puts in our path. To treat our salvation as an exclusive club is the height of arrogance, as we have done nothing to merit it, and “all our righteousness are like filthy rags . . .” (Is 64:6) May the Lord keep us focused on His plan for each of us and what is truly important to Him, ever thankful for his great mercy to us while we were yet sinners!
Ladies,
This is truly a blessing! This is what we are called to do. What I have concluded and I can’t enough of IS your spiritual gift, all of you. The respect and love from all our ladies. LADIES! this is what we are called to do as diciples. The KINDOM OF GOD! KEEP IT UP!
Dear sister, Dianne, that you would share this huge burden with us is a testimony to the safety you feel in the company of sisters here. Thank you for trusting us with this knowledge of you, dear one, and know that you will be lifted in prayer over this! I would like to encourage you, Dianne, that while God may have allowed this ‘personality disorder’ in you, He would not want you to be enslaved by it, or abused for it! You are precious to Him, Dianne, and to your friends/sisters here! It is good that you are taking steps to seek Christian counseling for help, as He will use them to minister to you and bring healing. May God bless you, Dianne, in this journey ahead!
Most holy God, You are slow to anger and quick to forgive, and oh, how we thank You for that! Your patience with us is abounding, we praise You for your forbearance and long-suffering! We are weak, and unworthy of Your kindnesses! Lord, we lift up our sister, Dianne, to You for Your divine care and healing! Precious is she to have shared such a personal burden with us, Lord, and we ask that You would do a mighty work in her life! Break those chains that have bound her for so long, and set her free! Use the Christian counselors, we pray, to peel away the layers of fear and distrust that have plagued her, and may she feel Your love through these servants! She is ready, Lord, and we thank You for bringing her to this place! Guide her steps and reassure her of Your constant care! In the most precious name of Jesus, Amen!
What about Isaiah 53:5 But ,he ws wounded and bruised for our sins he was chastised that we have peace;he was lashed and we are healed, Isaiah 1:18 Come,lets talk this over say the Lord;no matter how deep the stain of your sins, I can take it out and make you as clean as freshly fallen snow. Even if you are stained as red as crimson, I can make you white as wool. Is this the one you are looking for! Isaiah 1:18 more likely! Wow aren’t these marvelous verses!
Quoting Marilyn:
“As for 1 Pet 1:17, Romel H, you will notice that Peter is addressing believers, reminding them that God judges them impartially according to each one’s work in the Kingdom. While the doctrine of predestination is evidenced throughout Scripture, even in the OT, it is not something to ponder beyond our deepest gratitude and devotion to God! Satan knows the potential it has for promoting pridefulness in believers and bitter resentment in those who have not come to faith, and he uses it effectively to distract believers from our Great Commission and unbelievers from accepting Christ.”
I agree with you Marilyn 100%. When I was invited to the Apologetic chat room, all those who considered themselves as the only elect were very proud. And they considered me not among the elect, the saved if I do not join their group. In fact one of their ministers scolded me for going there to tell them that GOD’s grace is for all who will receive HIM. I was told that GOD’s grace is not available for all but only for the elect. the atonement of CHRIST is not for all but only for the elect. It’s not availabe for me because I’m not one of the elect.
I left very sad and I am still praying for them up to this time. Yes, its only to the believers they share this dangerous doctrine. How much we need to study GOD’s word with prayer so that GOD will fill us with the knowledge of HIS will, the knowledge that GOD loves us with unconditional love and when we received JESUS as our LORD and Saviour we become HIS Children and HE does not disclaime or disown us as HIS children when we commit sin. Again, when we sin until we confess and repent of our sins, we just lost our fellowship with HIM but never our relationship with Christ. Everytime we come to HIM repenting of our sins, even repenting only of one specific sin, HE cleansed the whole of us, so that there will be no sins left but we are as white as snow, no spic of dirt left.
1JOHN 1:9- If we confess our sins, HE is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from ALL unrighteousness.
Dianne:
“I just don’t know the chapter and verse where it says that, but it is ABSOLUTELY TRUE–I have read it more than once.
Does anyone know where it is?”
2 Peter 3:9 ‘The LORD is not slow in keeping HIS promise, as some understand slowness. HE is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but to come to repentance’.
Patti, what sharon b says is true: the Bible DOES say that God does not wish that ANYone perishes–that means YOU, too!
I just don’t know the chapter and verse where it says that, but it is ABSOLUTELY TRUE–I have read it more than once.
Does anyone know where it is?
(I need to follow through :-7 on doing what I told you all I would do.)
Dear Dianne
Just want to say that I am glad you trusted us enough to put all those thoughts on paper. I pray that there may be some healing in that alone and would encourage you to be aware that the enemy may try to tell you that you shouldn’t have done so. Don’t receive it!!
I do pray that if the councelling you mentioned is right for you that you will know it and that the right doors will open to get you the help you want.
Wow, I just finished reading all the comments on this subject; what a journey on Patti’s behalf and a lesson on Godly processing, too :-}.
I thought of a few things to say as I read, but the comment “Debating theology is nice, but knowledge is useless when it keeps us from serving as God has called each of us,” is a good stopping point, and as much as I would like to debate further, I’m not going to.
I am sure that this subject will come up again sometime down the road–it’s been with us since the dawn of Christianity, and probably from way before that, too :-D ! There are perhaps a handful of controversies/debates that mankind has never settled, and probably never will–at least not on this planet and age :-}.
More personal to me: Marilyn, I see the love and burden you wrote about in the way you have written to me. I see it in your writing to others, too. Thank you.
“But, while He is a very patient God, Dianne, remember how He judged the Israelites for their persistent rebellion? His patience will only go so far, then His wrath is levied. This does not mean that He no longer loves us, His children, but He disciplines His children, as a father disciplines those whom he loves. (Proverbs 3:12)”
My husband has rebuked me with Prov 29:1 “A man who remains stiff-necked after many rebukes will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy,” and that is scary. It helped light a fire under my backside for a while, but since then, it has cooled off a bit.
I think I vaguely remember my father throwing that principal (Prov 29:1) at me when I was a teenager, too, and it was one of the things that made me want to have nothing to do with God back then.
Today, I don’t want to throw God out of my life, I want to get closer and closer to Him, as much as I fear the challenges that brings, and will bring.
I am going to go out on a limb here. I am not going to write this in order to have an excuse, but but rather to taking another tiny little baby step toward getting honest about a long-standing problem that I have.
I have been in a battle between denial and acceptance about this for 22 years, and it has been “in my face” all around me lately. I have been putting out little tiny “trial balloons” in places where I feel safe enough to test the waters over the last 2 or 3 months.
Part of the reason I have been so very reluctant to believe I even have this problem is because there is a lot of prejudice, contempt, misinformation, and misunderstanding about it–even amongst professionals who treat it.
It has been thought to be incurable and almost untreatable for decades, although the professional climate has begun to change for the better over the last 5-10 years.
The professionals have begun to see that their reactions and prejudices toward those with the problem have also been part of the problem–making those who seek help appear even worse than they are, and building barriers where there should not be any.
My problem is that in addition to depression, I also have a personality disorder. Chronic low self esteem, fearfulness, distrust, sensitivity, and relational difficulties are part of this disorder. So is being able to remember and apply what I learn (so I need an relatively extraordinary amount of teaching, re-teaching, and reminders to keep on growing–which is VERY frustrating and disheartening to people around me who don’t understand it, and to myself).
While almost everyone has these difficulties to some extent or another, people with personality disorders have them to a much greater degree. In fact, the dictionary in my computer defines a personality disorder as “a deeply ingrained and maladaptive pattern of behavior typically manifest by the time one reaches adolescence and causing long-term difficulties in personal relationships or in functioning in society.”
(Maybe this is where the persistence of my problems with willingness and surrender come from–I don’t know.)
I didn’t ask to have this condition, but I have it. And I hate it.
On the other hand, I am grateful that I don’t have some of its most dramatic symptoms, though. I can “pass for normal” most of the time because I don’t.
On the “third hand ( ;-D ), ” because my symptoms are more subtle on the outside than they are for others that I know, it makes it a lot easier to deny that I have it. It is the uncommon nature of the “flops on my face” that I have that gives it/me away. And they sure do come!
One of the current theories is that it develops in people who have great, physically-based, sensitivity who then grow up in invalidating environments during their childhoods.
That doesn’t mean that a person’s parents have to be abusive or anything like that for this personality disorder to develop. It can be as simple as a personality mismatch—-a sensitive child with (a) practical, “git’er done” parent(s) who love(s) the child and just doesn’t know how to relate in ways the child can receive–for no other reason than they are “wired” differently than the child.
Or it could be that the parent(s) is super-stressed and overwhelmed because of work, financial, or other circumstances and “just can’t “be there” for the exceptionally sensitive child that they have.
(There has been an increase in the incidence of the[se] personality disorder[s] in recent decades, too. My opinion ? Society as it is now is so much harder on families than it used to be.)
But getting back to the subject, my parents didn’t set out to have a kid like me, either.
Now that the cat is out of the bag, I want you all to know that I don’t want to be treated any differently than I have been so far.
The reasons that I tell you I have this is because: 1) the problem has gotten to the point that all aspects of my life have been negatively affected by it, 2) my spiritual growth is severely limited–beyond the degree that my personality disorder alone would limit it–by my refusing to accept that I have it, and 3) because the very nature of this disease is so deep and so persistent (“stubborn” would probably work here), there is no way that I can hope to be relieved of it without the prayers of many other people.
My personality disorder might never be completely removed, even with prayer, This might remain my “thorn,” to some extent, for the rest of my life. In fact, God might want it to remain at least in some measure.
In 1995, I surrendered “every fiber of my being” to Jesus Christ/God/The Holy Spirit. Around that time, I had an experience of very distinctly feeling God hold me in His lap and wrap His arms around me, and tell me that He loves and accepts me exactly as I am–even with my personality disorder. He told me that was true because it was part of His plan for me to have it, and why would He hold against me anything that He had wrought in the first place?
I was OK with that for a while. Then, I was asked by another person who had the same disorder as I do to be her “sponsor” (mentor/accountability person).
She turned out to be extremely difficult to help. She had some other mental illnesses, too, and she was very needy; very manipulative, and she challenged virtually everything I said to try to help her.
She also called at almost any hour of the day or night–sometimes multiple times in 24 hours–usually in order to argue. I developed such a resentment toward her that I couldn’t stand her by the time we parted ways (which wasn’t more than a few, if not a couple, or months).
I also came to fear who I was/what I was like myself. I saw aspects of her in myself, and I didn’t like them in either one of us. I thought to myself, “If I am like her, then I can’t possibly have that disorder. I refuse to believe it. I can’t believe it. If I am that bad, then I don’t deserve to exist.”
Never mind what God had told me a few short months before that. I was not going to go there. I was not going to believe myself to be that awful. Besides, everyone knew that people with that personality disorder were hopeless anyway. I didn’t (and don’t) want to think of myself as never amounting to anything of value.
So, I judged that woman; I disregarded what God told me; and I judged myself.
Because I have valued the kinds of qualities the Bible tells us are good and that are of the Spirit all my life (as far as I can remember), I started working hard at being the kind of person that is kind, patient, non-judgmental, compassionate, etc. at an early age (the first time at age 5, and then more earnestly beginning at about 7 or 8.
As life continued to get worse, I gave up (to some extent), for about 10 years, but I chose my values early, and ever since I was told about this diagnosis, I have worked hard to police myself in order to not have the more dramatic symptoms of the disorder. Some symptoms I honestly don’t have, and never did. Some I did, but don’t any longer–or I have them to a lesser extent.
Some of them gotten worse again over the last couple of years, though. And these are what are making me look at this problem more closely now.
For the past 23 years, I have either denied, or have allowed myself to be “semi-aware” of my personality disorder. Every few years or so, I have peeked at it and then quickly drawn the curtain over it again. I’ve done this a little more frequently over the last 5 or so years, and I have began to look at it more in depth each time over the last year and a half.
Because a lot of the features of this personality disorder parallel things I read in the Bible; I believe that it is at least partly, if not in major part, a spiritual disease.
I know that part of what it does to me is that it makes it difficult for me to reach out for help and it makes it hard for me to maintain close relationships with other people– which, in turn, makes it more difficult for me (actually interferes with)to grow spiritually.
There are many different kinds of personality disorders, and I am not going to state which one I have, but I can reassure everyone with confidence that I am not a danger to others.
Do I let down, frustrate, confuse, and hurt the feelings of others around me? Yes, mostly unintentionally and even obliviously. But I don’t like confronting conflicts and when I feel threatened, I am much more likely to “fly” than to “fight.” I’d sooner isolate, not come around for a while, or pretend anything ever happened (not healthy behaviors, I know) than retaliate.
My husband is the exception because he does not hear my “no’s;” he makes a mockery of (or even literally mocks) my attempts to use healthy skills; and he will not give up a fight. Even if he has to wait a few days, weeks, or months to pick up an issue again, he does not give up on getting what he wants or on trying to get me to agree with what he thinks. I do argue and fight with him, and I sometimes I am the one who starts it, too.
On Tuesday, I stumbled across a book review about a book entitled, “Hurt People, Hurt People” by by Sandra D. Wilson and Ronald E. Eggert. It is a Christian psychology book, and it looks very much like something I can use.
Well, ladies. Thank you for taking the time to read this. I haven’t proofed it so that I don’t get into editing and re-editing it 10 or more x’s over :-D .
I know this has to be long, and I know that I have really stuck my neck out, but I have the house to myself today and I have permission to do whatever I want to do (no responsibilities)today and I feel a real need to share this stuff today.
I have not shared this openly about this problem (that I can remember, at least) with anyone else in the 23 years since I have been told I have it, and I know that “you’re only as sick as your secrets”(and this one is a doozy).
I really DO feel like a weigh has been lifted off my shoulders now that I have told someone this much.
“NO,” you ladies are NOT chopped liver :- D ! I love you and I am very grateful that you have created a place that makes it safe for me to share something this huge!!!
Just a few days ago, I was given the name of a Christian counseling center that is about 1 1/2 hours drive from here, but as soon as I finish here, I am going to write to them and ask them straight up front what they think/how they feel about working with a person with my disorder.
I hope they’ll take me, and treat me well. I am told that they are very good. We’ll see :-}.
Yours in Christ :-}}}. Love, Me
patti
The Lord does not want anyone to go to hell. it is in the Bible i bleave the devel istrying to get at you and you should not listen. we all sin and God does forgive us. hang on to Him and keep praying i will be praying for you
sharon b
Man, this discussion has gone pretty deep and has had us going to the Word. That’s good!! LOL!!
I liked Marilyn’s comment: “Debating theology is nice, but knowledge is uselss when it keeps us from serving as God has called each of us.” I love the fact that she has brouched ‘The Sovereignty of God.’
And Romel’s comment: “God may know who will reject HIM but HE didn’t choose that for them.”
I loved how you all surrounded Patti with such sound wisdom and the reference to Dr. Neil Anderson’s excellent book; Victory over Darkness.
Maria, how beautiful your testimony to God’s faithfulness and shepherding! He keeps a watchful eye on His sheep, and He seeks out those who are hurting, those who are tempted by the evil one, and those who have wandered from the flock. Praise Him for His goodness in using these devotionals to build you up in the faith! :) And, thank you for your kind words!
Well said Marilyn,
Dear sister in Christ, all of your comments were amazing. I come in to read them during my day. It has helped me in my trial. While this topic was going back and forth, I was under temptation. At one time I thought I was backsliding. It was this very website that helped me to stay focus. Reminding me and assuring me of Gods love. Is not fear but love for God that brought me back to my senses. I fear dissapoint Him. Is His unconditional gift of salvation that draws me back to HIM> Salvation is not enough, speding eternity beside HIM now thats what I talking about. We want to be close to our Lord now, but imagine being beside Him forever.
There are many scriptures that allude to the “elect,” or predestined believers, that it appears that there is substantiation of it. (Mt 24:24; Matt 24:31; Mk 13:22; Mk 13:27; Lk 18:7; Rom 8:33; Col 3:12; Titus 1:1; 1 Pet 1:2) As for 1 Pet 1:17, Romel H, you will notice that Peter is addressing believers, reminding them that God judges them impartially according to each one’s work in the Kingdom. While the doctrine of predestination is evidenced throughout Scripture, even in the OT, it is not something to ponder beyond our deepest gratitude and devotion to God! Satan knows the potential it has for promoting pridefulness in believers and bitter resentment in those who have not come to faith, and he uses it effectively to distract believers from our Great Commission and unbelievers from accepting Christ. Debating theology is nice, but knowledge is useless when it keeps us from serving as God has called each of us. God is God, and He can do whatever He wants! He owes us nothing. Some things we will not understand in this lifetime, but once we are face-to-face with our Lord and Savior, He will reveal what we need to know. In the meantime, the Scriptures reveal what is needed for us now to carry-out God’s kingdom plans. The hows and whys will be revealed to us in His time.
Correction:
But people do not want to go there.
I meant some people do not want to go there.
(I am sometimes surprised with what I wrote and I do not know why some of my postings doubled. so my apology. I did not mean to be redundant….
In 1Peter 1:17 and Acts 10:34 God has not predestined and chose the people HE will save. At least that is not the GOD I know that I serve. The GOD I serve is impartial, loving, merciful, compassionate and would do anything to bring all people to the Kingdom HE has prepared for all.
But people do not want to go there. So God cannot do anything and GOD is a Gentleman and HE won’t force anyone to go there if they don’t want to. At the same time, the devil lies to GOD’s children whose face is covered by sin, who enjoy sinning and the devil is doing all kinds of things to destroy them. I’m glad that out of GOD’s mercy, those who truly responded to the HS when the gospel were presented to them, were sealed for redemption. My daughter is among those who are backsliding. I am continuously praying for her return to the fellowship but if CHRIST returns, in her backsliding, she will not be left behind during the rapture, but she will missed out in so many rewards that will be given to those who faithfully served HIM.
That’s the kind of GOD we serve. Psalms 89:34 say “His covenant HE will not break and all the words that HIS lips had spoken, HE will do. I believe our GOD emphatically!
In 1Peter 1:17 and Acts 10:34 God has not predestined and chose the people HE will save. At least that is not the GOD I know that I serve. The GOD I serve is impartial, loving, merciful, compassionate and would do anything to bring all people to the Kingdom HE has prepared for all.
But people do not want to go there. So God cannot do anything and GOD is a Gentleman and HE won’t force anyone to go there if they don’t want to. At the same time, the devil lies to GOD’s children whose face is covered by sin, who enjoy sinning and the devil is doing all kinds of things to destroy them. I’m glad that out of GOD’s mercy, those who truly responded to the HS when the gospel were presented to them, were sealed for redemption. My daughter is among those who are backsliding. I am continuously praying for her return to the fellowship but if CHRIST returns, in her backsliding, she will not be left behind during the rapture, but she will missed out in so many rewards that will be given to those who faithfully served HIM.
That’s the kind of GOD we serve. Psalms 89:34 say “His covenant HE will not break and all the words that HIS lips had spoken, HE will do. I believe our GOD emphatically!
Qoting Patricia:
“Dear Patti
I believe we were all predestined to be “save”, but some of us have rejected that salvation. God may have know who would reject Him, but He didn’t choose that for them.”
I think I understand what Patricia is saying. Some questions must be addressed for good so that it will be completely taken cared of. And this is for me and anyone who has a question on predestination.
I know I came across this doctrine in one of the chat rooms and I am not sure if this is the problem. In any case its good to get acquainted with this problematic doctrine that put so many Christians in bondage. In fact I lost one of my best friends that I thought was strong in faith. I do not know if you recognize this.
T–total depravity of sinful human nature
U–Unconditional election, in that humans are not predestined on the basis of any forseen merit, quality, or achievment.
L–Limited atonement, in that Christ only dies for the elect.
I–Irresistible grace, by which the elect are infallibly called and redeemed
P–Perseverence of the saints, in that those who are truly predestined by God cannot in any way defect from that calling.
This is a very hard doctrine and need a very deep study. Those who have been caught in this doctrine must have renewal of mind.
Some link in our website might be able to help us arrive in a conclusion of freedom that God would like us to have because we are given a freedom of choice. That link is
http://www.journeyofjoy.com/. There could be more links,not sure.
I just would suggest few verses that might make us think again, common verses that we read lightly over—
1. John 3:16- For GOD so loved the world that HE gave HIS only begotten SON that WHOSOEVER, believes in HIM should not perish but have eternal life.
Here- the invation is not limited to anyone. It’s for all.
2. Ist Peter 1:17- And if you call on the FATHER who without partiality judges according to ones’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear.
3. Acts 10:34- Then Peter opened his mouth and said: In truth I perceive that GOD shows no partiality.
Yes, GOD’s promises is offered to everyone on earth; promises found from Genesis to Revelation so we can have peace if we truly, honestly and sincerely repented of our sins and we have asked JESUS to come into our heart as our LORD and Savior, HE had come in and have dined with us and we with HIM (Revelation 3:20) and had sealed us with the HS that no that no one can drive away. HE is our guarantee that our redemption is ensured. (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2Corinthians 1:21-22). If we are having a difficult time to stay on that ground, pray to the LORD to help us with our unbelief. It’s not a negative thing when we pray that prayer. I think all of us need to pray that prayer on the areas we are having a hard time to accept and totally believe HIM.
Precious Lord, tonight I would ask that You tenderly minister to our dear sister, Patti, as she battles Satan for her mind. Deepen her knowledge of You and give her spiritual understanding that would bring comfort to her soul! Reassure her of Your everlasting love, that Your grace is abounding and sufficient for her needs! May Your Spirit in her reign victoriously, and restore Your peace and joy! In Your most Holy Name, Jesus! Amen!
Thanks, Margaret
I’ll see if I can get the book here. Good night, sleep well…
Dear Patti, once God saves you, He doesn’t just unsave you when you stumble into sin, fall into sin, run into sin, choose sin. While it surely grieves Him when we choose to disobey Him, and when we yield to Satan’s temptations, He is faithful to forgive us when we confess and turn to Him for cleansing and renewal. During sanctification (our spiritual growth and development), we will continue to sin (because we are sinners saved by grace); however, we are no longer slaves to sin. The indwelling Holy Spirit is given to us as a guide through the remainder of our lives, to impart wisdom, to protect, to convict, to comfort, to encourage, to empower us to fulfill God’s plan and purpose for us. Your concern that, “if I’m lost . . . then there is no hope, no grace, no assurance, no salvation,” is faulty, for Jesus came to save the lost, and while there is still breath, there is always hope! I do not believe that this is your situation, though, Patti. Your faithful prayers here on the blog, your loving words of encouragemnt are manifestations of the Holy Spirit in you! Your uncertainty may be Satan’s ploy to rob you of your peace and joy! Your recent spiritual victory has surely made you a likely target for him. I would encourage you, my dear sister and friend, to cling to the Truths as revealed in Scripture, and claim God’s promises to you!
Donna I saw that Patricia said the same thing as I said (Margaret) about being a Saint one declare righteous by God who sometimes sin. If you get a chance to read Neil Andersons book, Victory over the darkness. It is a amaing book!
Yes God’s grace is suffficient! for you, my power is made perfect in weakness! A neat verse to say outloud with conviction that God’s grace is sufficent! Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to thank any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God. 11 Corthians 3:5.
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will and it shall be done unto you!
I think Iwill go off to bed as my spelling is being challenged! God Bless and Good night! A warm evening in Kitchener,Ontario Canada with lots of snow left still and a bit more today!