Can You Connect to God Without Religion?

Written by Karen Schenk

soulcravingsfindreligionIs there a difference between God and Religion? There is definitely a difference between God and religion.  God is someone I have a relationship with.  My view on God can be altered by many factors in my life.  It can be affected by my relationship with my own father or even by my culture and the people I spend time with.

I see religion is a set of beliefs that have guidelines for behavior associated with them.    There are many religions with many differing beliefs and rules.   I don’t  think God needs religion.  He wants to have a relationship with me.   It is so easy for me to get confused and think that my relationship with him has rules of engagement.    I love knowing that God cares about me and that my relationship with him does not need a lot of order and structure.  I want to participate in religion or church to celebrate his holiness, but it’s not a condition of knowing God.  Do you believe you can you connect to God without religion?

If you have questions, we’d love to hear from you. Use this form to  be matched with one of our mentors. Mentors are trained volunteers with real life experience.  They can answer questions, point you to other resources or just listen when you have something to say.

Your mentor will email you using our secure system, The Mentor Center (TMC).  TMC ensures your privacy by protecting your information.  If you want to keep talking, just hit reply.  The conversation is free, confidential and non-judgmental.   You can keep talking to your mentor as long as you like and there is never a fee.   If you’re curious, start a conversation.  We’re ready when you are.

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931 Responses to “Can You Connect to God Without Religion?”

  • seon says:

    Tom-

    (probably for the benefit of those who read this thread more so) here are the passages you asked for:

    Numbers 31:9 King James Version (KJV)

    9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods

    Plus, I refuse to worship a bully God who took part in these massacres:

    Numbers 25:4

    And the Lord said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel.

    Exodus 32:27-29King James Version (KJV)

    27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour

    Numbers 16:27-33King James Version (KJV)

    27 So they gat up from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, on every side: and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children.

    28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the Lord hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.

    29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the Lord hath not sent me.

    30 But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord

    Numbers 16:35King James Version (KJV)

    35 And there came out a fire from the Lord, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

    Numbers 25

    5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.

    6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

    7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;

    8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.

    9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.

    As for beating slaves

    Exodus 21:20-21King James Version (KJV)

    20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

    21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

    The God of the Bible is a bully and a god of war. And Jesus isn’t any better Matthew 10:53 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law

    And finally, I refuse to hate my parents Luke 14:26

  • seon says:

    “Your argument only works if WE are God and KNOW that the birth of the baby will cause death of the mother. Therefore it is not a good argument. Please fill in this blank Seon: “It is OK to murder an innocent baby when ________””

    Ok I realize I can’t change the mind of a young Earth creationist so I’m not trying to anymore. This is for the benefit of someone reading this thread.

    “It is OK to murder an innocent baby when IT IS NOT A BABY BUT A FETUS THAT IS NOT FULLY DEVELOPED, THEN IT IS NOT MURDER”

    “Why? In your humanistic worldview there is no absolute right or wrong so why would it be wrong to force a woman to do something and why would that person deserve to be charged with murder? You still haven’t told me where your absolute standard of right and wrong and morality come from. But suppose for a moment your argument is true—What gives anyone the “right” to choose between the innocent baby and the mother? That would be playing God.”

    I told you, to benefit society and evolution. So letting women die giving birth does not benefit society because both the baby and the mother- still a potential breeder- does not benefit society. It is also morally wrong and I can’t tell you where I get the sense that all life is sacred.

    “You know what they say about opinions don’t you Seon? You make my point—an absolute standard of morality and right and wrong is needed or everyone will just make up the rules as they go along.”

    Exactly and Rick and those Christians who would outlaw abortion are morally wrong. Period.

    “And where does humanism get their standard of the value of human life? It can’t from man because man’s standards are constantly changing (read that evolving.) Has humanity every been wrong? ”

    Has the Bible ever been wrong? Hopefully this question will get someone else to think.

    “Spoken like a true abortionist! What about the bodies of their unborn babies? Remember that only a tiny percentage of conceptions are a result of incest or rape. That means the innocent little baby is paying with their life for the self-centeredness of the “mother.” What’s wrong with adoption? Why kill the baby? Why murder 58 MILLION babies in the last 40 years just to that some women won’t die from illegally trying to murder their babies? Remember, this is the exception, not the rule.”

    The fetus isn’t a baby. It’s not murder. Only by your definition. Do you know what children go through when they are in the foster system? If they can guarantee an adoption to a loving parents that would be a beneficial alternative. But we must still consider the health of the woman, especially if it is a child.

    “As with many who are Bible illiterate, you confuse civil and ceremonial law in the Old Testament with God’s moral law, the Ten Commandments. Civil and ceremonial laws change over time and from society to society. Moral laws do not. For an example of this, go to Answers In Genesis and search on “Killing one’s rebellious child.””

    So then homosexuality being punishable by death is just a ceremonial law as well?

    “I never doubted that you have a standard of morality; but you didn’t get it from humanism because there is no unchangeable standard in humanism. Your morals come directly from God’s standard of morality even if you won’t admit it, because it can come from no other place.”

    But even those standards change.

    ““Yep I remember that and if they married another slave they had to remain a slave. I still remember reading passages where Israeli soldiers were told to make slaves of the virgins in the villages they massacred.”
    Please quote me Book and verse to that I may reply.”

    That’s a separate post.

    “Humanistic ethics evolve over time do they not? Therefore they could change at any moment or with a change in the majority thought. And concerning the lives that matter, what percentage of convicted murderers do you suppose do NOT follow Christian beliefs as opposed to those who do? I task you to do some homework on that. ”

    What percentage do? How many Christians are in the prison population? Who says murderers who aren’t Christians are humanists? Even if they are most humanists would find them appalling.

    “So did God allow Abraham to murder his son? No. God was simply giving Abraham an opportunity to reveal to HIMSELF where his faith lay, and Abraham passed the test with flying colors. Also, since humanists have no absolute standard of morality, how can you assess what God does as moral or not?”

    We do- killing is wrong. Period. And any father willing to sacrifice his own son to his God is not moral. Any God forcing his follower to make that choice is not a moral being. It’s more like a bully.

    “Without an absolute standard of right and wrong, how would you know what the “best bits” are? For that matter, how do you know for sure that any of the Bible’s points are “good?””

    As I said I believe all human life is sacred and worthy of respect, so by those standards I know some of what the Bible says is good.

    “How do you know that? You don’t know me or what is in my heart. And you don’t know what ANYBODY would do if God didn’t exist at all. How do you know we wouldn’t all be like ISIS right now? The Bible says, “The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked—who can know it?””

    Well the point I was trying to get you to consider was it’s not really moral if the only reason you are moral is because of faith and because you fear hell.

  • seon says:

    “That’s correct; they do and they did. See Job 40:15-24. Also view some of the latest evidence that dinosaurs can’t possibly be millions of years old because we’re finding more and more soft tissue in dinosaur remains that can’t last that long.”

    LMAO that is just so sad and so funny that people have bought into that insane delusion. So what we lived along side each other like the Flinstones?, I guess that would be a documentary for you guys. I just feel so sorry for you. I could give you all the archeological, scientific and historic evidence that the Earth is older than 10 billion years old but you would just say God created it to look that way. There is no way in hell the millions of species of Dinosaurs just took a few thousand years to evolve. You really need help man but I guess you would say “I’ve got help, I believe the Bible and reject any evidence that disproves my world view”

    “Fossils have totally failed to materialize that show transitional life forms. Species distribution has nothing to do with evolution, only natural selection which I’ve previously shown is NOT macro-E. Humans and apes share SOME DNA traits because they were created by the same Creator. Are you aware that when evolutionists compare ape DNA to man’s they are only comparing those sections of DNA which are ALREADY KNOWN to be similar while ignoring the rest in their reports? For example, eye-to-eye, kidney-to-kidney, etc. They are playing with a stacked deck! Even if 95% of ape DNA and human DNA were similar, that would still leave more than 100 MILLION differences! But now the evolutionists are admitting that only about 70% of the total DNA is somewhat similar which means BILLIONS of differences!”

    But the differences are so small. How did the platypus get from the ark to Australia? Let me guess, Bible magic.

    “Fantastic Seon! Just read the Bible and compare every aspect of it to what we know scientifically (or archeologically, or historically). Let me know when you’re done. Oh, and please remember—macro-E is NOT scientific.”

    I did that, talking snakes: Not scientific, mud to man creation: Not scientific, rib to woman creation: Not scientific, living inside big fish well you better believe it not scientific. The list of insanity goes on.

  • Tom Tom says:

    “So if we know that a woman will die in giving birth you think she should be forced to attempt to give birth and that everyone around her should suffer when her death could be avoided?!”
    Your argument only works if WE are God and KNOW that the birth of the baby will cause death of the mother. Therefore it is not a good argument. Please fill in this blank Seon: “It is OK to murder an innocent baby when ________”

    “Yes that’s the common argument anti abortion people use but I think if someone forces a woman to give birth even though that will cause her to die they should be charged with murder.”
    Why? In your humanistic worldview there is no absolute right or wrong so why would it be wrong to force a woman to do something and why would that person deserve to be charged with murder? You still haven’t told me where your absolute standard of right and wrong and morality come from. But suppose for a moment your argument is true—What gives anyone the “right” to choose between the innocent baby and the mother? That would be playing God.

    “…and I believe that, that any doctor who performs an abortion–that–I would advocate that any doctor that performs an abortion should be criminally charged for doing so. I don’t–I’ve never supported criminalization of abortion for mothers, but I do for people who perform them. I believe that life is sacred…” Rick Santorum. No exceptions.”
    You know what they say about opinions don’t you Seon? You make my point—an absolute standard of morality and right and wrong is needed or everyone will just make up the rules as they go along.

    “As I said every human life is sacred and of equal value, humanism teaches us to have faith in humanity.”
    And where does humanism get their standard of the value of human life? It can’t from man because man’s standards are constantly changing (read that evolving.) Has humanity every been wrong?

    “Just a few thousand is too many. Plus it’s their bodies.”
    Spoken like a true abortionist! What about the bodies of their unborn babies? Remember that only a tiny percentage of conceptions are a result of incest or rape. That means the innocent little baby is paying with their life for the self-centeredness of the “mother.” What’s wrong with adoption? Why kill the baby? Why murder 58 MILLION babies in the last 40 years just to that some women won’t die from illegally trying to murder their babies? Remember, this is the exception, not the rule.

    “God also says we should kill people who work on the Sabbath but you don’t go around saying we should do that.”
    As with many who are Bible illiterate, you confuse civil and ceremonial law in the Old Testament with God’s moral law, the Ten Commandments. Civil and ceremonial laws change over time and from society to society. Moral laws do not. For an example of this, go to Answers In Genesis and search on “Killing one’s rebellious child.”

    “I do have a standard of morality, I believe in women’s rights and in not forcing a woman to die in back ally abortions.”
    I never doubted that you have a standard of morality; but you didn’t get it from humanism because there is no unchangeable standard in humanism. Your morals come directly from God’s standard of morality even if you won’t admit it, because it can come from no other place.

    “Yep I remember that and if they married another slave they had to remain a slave. I still remember reading passages where Israeli soldiers were told to make slaves of the virgins in the villages they massacred.”
    Please quote me Book and verse to that I may reply.

    “Based on humanist ethics, that human lives matter.”
    Humanistic ethics evolve over time do they not? Therefore they could change at any moment or with a change in the majority thought. And concerning the lives that matter, what percentage of convicted murderers do you suppose do NOT follow Christian beliefs as opposed to those who do? I task you to do some homework on that.

    “ I mean the Biblical God is immoral and makes immoral commands like ordering Abraham to murder his son. How is it moral to be willing to kill your son just because a voice inside your head tells you to?”
    So did God allow Abraham to murder his son? No. God was simply giving Abraham an opportunity to reveal to HIMSELF where his faith lay, and Abraham passed the test with flying colors. Also, since humanists have no absolute standard of morality, how can you assess what God does as moral or not?

    “Well the Bible has some good points, I’m willing to admit that. But we can pick and choose the best bits from religion because we don’t believe the bible is the word of god.”
    Without an absolute standard of right and wrong, how would you know what the “best bits” are? For that matter, how do you know for sure that any of the Bible’s points are “good?”

    “But you still wouldn’t suddenly go out and do immoral things because you can.”
    How do you know that? You don’t know me or what is in my heart. And you don’t know what ANYBODY would do if God didn’t exist at all. How do you know we wouldn’t all be like ISIS right now? The Bible says, “The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked—who can know it?”

  • Tom Tom says:

    “Answers in genesis is a young earth creationist website that teaches humans lived with Dinosaurs.”
    That’s correct; they do and they did. See Job 40:15-24. Also view some of the latest evidence that dinosaurs can’t possibly be millions of years old because we’re finding more and more soft tissue in dinosaur remains that can’t last that long.

    “There’s still far more evidence than Creationism. Fossils, species distribution, the fact that humans and apes share so much dna…”
    Fossils have totally failed to materialize that show transitional life forms. Species distribution has nothing to do with evolution, only natural selection which I’ve previously shown is NOT macro-E. Humans and apes share SOME DNA traits because they were created by the same Creator. Are you aware that when evolutionists compare ape DNA to man’s they are only comparing those sections of DNA which are ALREADY KNOWN to be similar while ignoring the rest in their reports? For example, eye-to-eye, kidney-to-kidney, etc. They are playing with a stacked deck! Even if 95% of ape DNA and human DNA were similar, that would still leave more than 100 MILLION differences! But now the evolutionists are admitting that only about 70% of the total DNA is somewhat similar which means BILLIONS of differences!

    “One of the great things about science (And I am guessing you’d disagree) is if there is evidence a theory can be proven wrong scientists will be happy to change their minds. If I had evidence that your God existed, that the claims of the gospels were true and that he created the universe in 7 days I would be happy to examine it.”
    Fantastic Seon! Just read the Bible and compare every aspect of it to what we know scientifically (or archeologically, or historically). Let me know when you’re done. Oh, and please remember—macro-E is NOT scientific.

  • seon says:

    “I absolutely believe that. And I can assure you that God was not kidding when he said, ““Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you; before you were born I set you apart.” (Jeremiah 1:5)
    “Even before I was born, God had chosen me to be His.” (Galatians 1:15)
    “For you created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb . . Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be.” (Psalm 139:13,16)
    “Do not shed innocent blood.” (Jeremiah 7:6)
    “Cursed is the man who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person.” (Deuteronomy 27:25)
    “You shall not murder.” (Exodus 20:13)
    “He didn’t kill me in the womb, with my mother as my grave.” (Jeremiah 20;17)
    “If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life.” (Exodus 21:22-23)”

    So if we know that a woman will die in giving birth you think she should be forced to attempt to give birth and that everyone around her should suffer when her death could be avoided?!

    “Are you not aware that in most states, if an unborn baby is caused to die by an act of violence to the mother, the perpetrator is charged with murder?”

    Yes that’s the common argument anti abortion people use but I think if someone forces a woman to give birth even though that will cause her to die they should be charged with murder.

    “I don’t agree with your straw man argument. ”

    “…and I believe that, that any doctor who performs an abortion–that–I would advocate that any doctor that performs an abortion should be criminally charged for doing so. I don’t–I’ve never supported criminalization of abortion for mothers, but I do for people who perform them. I believe that life is sacred…”

    Rick Santorum. No exceptions.

    “Christians believe that every human life is brought into existence by God and is of equal value. But suppose what you state about back alley abortions was true– why would you think it wrong for women to die from an abortion? In your evolutionary worldview, death is an advantage as the weaker of the species dies off and leaves the stronger. Without God’s standard of morality, why would you consider it wrong in the first place? That’s just your opinion.”

    As I said every human life is sacred and of equal value, humanism teaches us to have faith in humanity.

    “When abortion was illegal, the sketchy statistics were that a few thousand women died per year from illegal abortions. Compare that with the 1.2 million aborted babies, including full-term/late term abortions of fully formed babies that have ensured since 1973. And when you compare abortion related deaths of women from 1972 to the first year of “legal” abortions in 1973, there was only a difference of 19 deaths.”

    Just a few thousand is too many. Plus it’s their bodies.

    “That’s your opinion. God says they are innocent babies. Have you ever seen a 12-week old “fetus?” It is a completely formed little human being. ”

    God also says we should kill people who work on the Sabbath but you don’t go around saying we should do that.

    ““. . .the fetus is NOT an innocent baby. A baby is a baby when they are born.”
    Not according to the laws I mentioned above. Attack a pregnant woman and kill her unborn baby. See what happens to you. But again, why are you so concerned about these things when you have no absolute standard of morality? Are you stealing from a creation worldview standard?”

    I do have a standard of morality, I believe in women’s rights and in not forcing a woman to die in back ally abortions.

    “What’s wrong with that in your humanist worldview that has no absolute standard of morality?”

    According to your opinion. So we should kill soldiers, doctors, nurses, fireman etc who benefit society?

    “Well I suppose you could, but unless you understand and state each context, it would have little meaning. For example, many so-called slaves in Old Testament times were indentured slaves. They owed someone something and worked as that person’s “slave” until the debt was paid off. Are you aware of the biblical standard which set slaves free in the 7th year of their service? They then had the choice to either stay on as “slaves” or not.”

    Yep I remember that and if they married another slave they had to remain a slave. I still remember reading passages where Israeli soldiers were told to make slaves of the virgins in the villages they massacred.

    “A perfectly moral God would never “support” (whatever you mean by that) immoral acts. That is impossible. However, in your humanist worldview, you might consider things immoral which God does not. And how would you know that God was supporting immoral acts when your humanist moral standard is not absolute? How would you know it was immoral?”

    Based on humanist ethics, that human lives matter. I mean the Biblical God is immoral and makes immoral commands like ordering Abraham to murder his son. How is it moral to be willing to kill your son just because a voice inside your head tells you to?

    “I never said you and other humanists/evolutionists can’t keep the law or act morally. I’m saying that your worldview has no basis for doing those things. When you act “morally,” you are stealing from the creation worldview which has a perfect moral standard by which to judge actions. In fact, it is your God-given conscience that gives you even a minor sense of what is right and what is wrong.”

    Well the Bible has some good points, I’m willing to admit that. But we can pick and choose the best bits from religion because we don’t believe the bible is the word of god.

    “I don’t know how many times I have to answer that. Without God, there would be no reason for me NOT to do immoral things because without God’s perfect standard of morality, nothing would be immoral.”

    But you still wouldn’t suddenly go out and do immoral things because you can.

  • seon says:

    Answers in genesis is a young earth creationist website that teaches humans lived with Dinosaurs.

    “But you can’t because there aren’t any.”

    There’s still far more evidence than Creationism. Fossils, species distribution, the fact that humans and apes share so much dna…

    “To quote yourself, “even if I provided (evidence for creation) you would still find an excuse to not accept the evidence.” That’s because although the evidence for creation is all around you, because of your secular humanist, evolutionary worldview, you cannot see the forest for the trees so-to-speak. ”

    One of the great things about science (And I am guessing you’d disagree) is if there is evidence a theory can be proven wrong scientists will be happy to change their minds. If I had evidence that your God existed, that the claims of the gospels were true and that he created the universe in 7 days I would be happy to examine it.

  • Tom Tom says:

    “Are you kidding me? Do you really believe a undeveloped fetus still growing in the mothers womb is more important than a fully developed conscious adult human?!”
    I absolutely believe that. And I can assure you that God was not kidding when he said, ““Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you; before you were born I set you apart.” (Jeremiah 1:5)
    “Even before I was born, God had chosen me to be His.” (Galatians 1:15)
    “For you created my inmost being; You knit me together in my mother’s womb . . Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in Your book before one of them came to be.” (Psalm 139:13,16)
    “Do not shed innocent blood.” (Jeremiah 7:6)
    “Cursed is the man who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person.” (Deuteronomy 27:25)
    “You shall not murder.” (Exodus 20:13)
    “He didn’t kill me in the womb, with my mother as my grave.” (Jeremiah 20;17)
    “If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life.” (Exodus 21:22-23)

    Are you not aware that in most states, if an unborn baby is caused to die by an act of violence to the mother, the perpetrator is charged with murder?

    “If Christians had their way we would go back to the days when women would be forced to give abortions in the back ally where they run a greater risk of dying all because of faith.”
    I don’t agree with your straw man argument. Christians believe that every human life is brought into existence by God and is of equal value. But suppose what you state about back alley abortions was true– why would you think it wrong for women to die from an abortion? In your evolutionary worldview, death is an advantage as the weaker of the species dies off and leaves the stronger. Without God’s standard of morality, why would you consider it wrong in the first place? That’s just your opinion.

    When abortion was illegal, the sketchy statistics were that a few thousand women died per year from illegal abortions. Compare that with the 1.2 million aborted babies, including full-term/late term abortions of fully formed babies that have ensured since 1973. And when you compare abortion related deaths of women from 1972 to the first year of “legal” abortions in 1973, there was only a difference of 19 deaths.

    “Fetuses are NOT innocent babies. They haven’t even developed.”
    That’s your opinion. God says they are innocent babies. Have you ever seen a 12-week old “fetus?” It is a completely formed little human being.

    “. . .the fetus is NOT an innocent baby. A baby is a baby when they are born.”
    Not according to the laws I mentioned above. Attack a pregnant woman and kill her unborn baby. See what happens to you. But again, why are you so concerned about these things when you have no absolute standard of morality? Are you stealing from a creation worldview standard?

    “Ah so killing people who work on the Sabbath?“
    What’s wrong with that in your humanist worldview that has no absolute standard of morality?

    “Um owning another human being? It mentions slaves quit a bit. Shall I post the passages?”
    Well I suppose you could, but unless you understand and state each context, it would have little meaning. For example, many so-called slaves in Old Testament times were indentured slaves. They owed someone something and worked as that person’s “slave” until the debt was paid off. Are you aware of the biblical standard which set slaves free in the 7th year of their service? They then had the choice to either stay on as “slaves” or not.

    “But why would a perfectly moral God support immoral acts?”
    A perfectly moral God would never “support” (whatever you mean by that) immoral acts. That is impossible. However, in your humanist worldview, you might consider things immoral which God does not. And how would you know that God was supporting immoral acts when your humanist moral standard is not absolute? How would you know it was immoral?

    “Well I don’t rape, steal or kill the motorist who pisses me off not because I’m afraid of going to hell or even jail but because I actually want to treat everyone with some dignity.”
    I never said you and other humanists/evolutionists can’t keep the law or act morally. I’m saying that your worldview has no basis for doing those things. When you act “morally,” you are stealing from the creation worldview which has a perfect moral standard by which to judge actions. In fact, it is your God-given conscience that gives you even a minor sense of what is right and what is wrong.

    “So I ask again, would YOU do immoral things without god in the equation?”
    I don’t know how many times I have to answer that. Without God, there would be no reason for me NOT to do immoral things because without God’s perfect standard of morality, nothing would be immoral.

  • Tom Tom says:

    “Archaeopteryx, Eohippus, Ambulocetus and Rodhocetusvidence. . . .”
    Sorry, but each of these in turn has been either disproven completely or never proven to be a transitional life form. Visit either Answers in Genesis, Institute for Creation Research, or Creation Ministries International for the details. Some of these are still showing up in new biology textbooks even though evolutionary scientists themselves have long ago agreed they do not fit the bill.

    “. . . but even if I provided fossils of species changing into another species from start to finish you would still find an excuse to not accept the evidence.”
    But you can’t because there aren’t any.

    “What evidence do you have?”
    To quote yourself, “even if I provided (evidence for creation) you would still find an excuse to not accept the evidence.” That’s because although the evidence for creation is all around you, because of your secular humanist, evolutionary worldview, you cannot see the forest for the trees so-to-speak.

    “The heavens declare the glory of God . . .” Psalm 19:1.

    “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.” Romans 1:18ff

  • seon says:

    “Why is an unborn life more important than a born one? According to God (and science) they are both human lives. Who are we to decide which is more important? That’s why we need a perfect standard of morality, and only a perfect God can supply one.”

    Are you kidding me? Do you really believe a undeveloped fetus still growing in the mothers womb is more important than a fully developed conscious adult human?!

    “No one “forces” a raped woman to murder her unborn baby, in a back alley or otherwise. By God’s standard, that is an immoral humanistic choice of the woman. Why should an innocent baby be murdered because of the unlawfulness of the father (rapist)? It would seem your standard of morality concerning life is different than mine Seon; so which one is morally right? What does the perfect moral-giver God say?”

    If Christians had their way we would go back to the days when women would be forced to give abortions in the back ally where they run a greater risk of dying all because of faith. Fetuses are NOT innocent babies. They haven’t even developed.

    “But didn’t you just argue that killing an innocent unborn baby is alright in certain circumstances? That proves that humanistic ethics/morals are purely subjective, and that killing people isn’t always “bad.” Without God’s perfect standard of what is good and bad, you basically have no good or bad—it’s always a matter of opinion.”

    No because the fetus is NOT an innocent baby. A baby is a baby when they are born.

    “The Ten Commandments plus the moral teachings of God and Jesus Christ and those to whom they spoke by the Holy Spirit.”

    Ah so killing people who work on the Sabbath?

    “What do you mean by “slavery?” Please define your terms. Nearly everyone I’ve heard use the “The Bible supports slavery” argument do not understand the various types of “slavery”.”

    Um owning another human being? It mentions slaves quit a bit. Shall I post the passages?

    “While I don’t agree that any of the things you mention are immoral in their own original context, let’s assume they are. Whose standard of morality are you using to determine that any of these things were “immoral acts”? It can’t be humanistic standards because they keep changing and are totally subjective. Therefore, it must be God’s perfect standard of morality; and since God is perfectly moral, your interpretation of each of the things you suggest are immoral must be wrong.”

    But why would a perfectly moral God support immoral acts?

    “I’m saying that without God’s moral standard there would be no reason NOT to. Lots of people kill and rape without any thought of it being wrong. They’re using their own humanistic standard, not God’s.”

    Well I don’t rape, steal or kill the motorist who pisses me off not because I’m afraid of going to hell or even jail (by the way Tom, that’s an obvious reason not to kill) but because I actually want to treat everyone with some dignity.

    As I said, if we all went out and did those things society would fall apart and humanity would cease evolving.

    So I ask again, would YOU do immoral things without god in the equation?

  • seon says:

    “Observational science can neither prove macro-evolution or creation because neither can be observed or replicated. There are no known undisputed transitional fossils—fossils which show transitions from one kind to another kind. Since there should be billions of them, and since there are no known present-day transitional life forms, the idea that man evolved from lower kinds of creatures has no justification there. Scientific methods continue to show that the theory of evolution is not even possible. ”

    Archaeopteryx, Eohippus, Ambulocetus and Rodhocetus but even if I provided fossils of species changing into another species from start to finish you would still find an excuse to not accept the evidence.

    “If we take any observable piece of evidence and compare it to the evolutionary models and to the creation account, the objective results overwhelmingly come down on the side of creation. And yes, someone DID witness the act of creation—God—and He gave us His personal account of the creation of the universe, earth, and life on earth.”

    Using that logic we could say God witnessed evolution too. And we have fossils. What evidence do you have?

  • Tom Tom says:

    To respond point-by-point:
    “My understanding of humanism is the human life matters more then an unborn life.”
    Why is an unborn life more important than a born one? According to God (and science) they are both human lives. Who are we to decide which is more important? That’s why we need a perfect standard of morality, and only a perfect God can supply one.

    “Forcing women who were raped to have abortions in back ally’s where they could die is also immoral and will always be immoral despite what society once claimed.”
    No one “forces” a raped woman to murder her unborn baby, in a back alley or otherwise. By God’s standard, that is an immoral humanistic choice of the woman. Why should an innocent baby be murdered because of the unlawfulness of the father (rapist)? It would seem your standard of morality concerning life is different than mine Seon; so which one is morally right? What does the perfect moral-giver God say?

    “That is another example of what is always bad. I should have added society that uses humanism ethics determines what is good. According to humanism human life is sacred, so killing Jews would always be wrong no matter how a society justifies it. “
    But didn’t you just argue that killing an innocent unborn baby is alright in certain circumstances? That proves that humanistic ethics/morals are purely subjective, and that killing people isn’t always “bad.” Without God’s perfect standard of what is good and bad, you basically have no good or bad—it’s always a matter of opinion.

    “What standards were those?”
    The Ten Commandments plus the moral teachings of God and Jesus Christ and those to whom they spoke by the Holy Spirit.

    “The Bible supports slavery.”
    What do you mean by “slavery?” Please define your terms. Nearly everyone I’ve heard use the “The Bible supports slavery” argument do not understand the various types of “slavery”.

    “The Bible also supports immoral acts like when Abraham was willing to sacrifice Issac, the massacre’s carried out by Israeli soldiers, the death penalty for people who work on the Sabbath, witches, gay people, people who don’t listen to their priests, women who are not virgins on their wedding nights, the list goes on.”
    While I don’t agree that any of the things you mention are immoral in their own original context, let’s assume they are. Whose standard of morality are you using to determine that any of these things were “immoral acts”? It can’t be humanistic standards because they keep changing and are totally subjective. Therefore, it must be God’s perfect standard of morality; and since God is perfectly moral, your interpretation of each of the things you suggest are immoral must be wrong.

    “So your saying you would go out and kill and rape people?”
    I’m saying that without God’s moral standard there would be no reason NOT to. Lots of people kill and rape without any thought of it being wrong. They’re using their own humanistic standard, not God’s.

  • Tom Tom says:

    Observational science can neither prove macro-evolution or creation because neither can be observed or replicated. There are no known undisputed transitional fossils—fossils which show transitions from one kind to another kind. Since there should be billions of them, and since there are no known present-day transitional life forms, the idea that man evolved from lower kinds of creatures has no justification there. Scientific methods continue to show that the theory of evolution is not even possible.

    If we take any observable piece of evidence and compare it to the evolutionary models and to the creation account, the objective results overwhelmingly come down on the side of creation. And yes, someone DID witness the act of creation—God—and He gave us His personal account of the creation of the universe, earth, and life on earth.

  • seon says:

    “Human reason and standards keep changing. What one person considers valuing a human life, another does not. Consider that up until 40 years ago it was literally a crime to kill an unborn baby; but overnight in a Supreme Court decision in 1973, it became OK to murder the unborn. ”

    My understanding of humanism is the human life matters more then an unborn life. If a mother will die if she gives birth, forcing her to give birth is immoral and has always been immoral. Forcing women who were raped to have abortions in back ally’s where they could die is also immoral and will always be immoral despite what society once claimed.

    ““Society as a whole determines what is good.”
    So what you’re saying is that the majority rules? In Nazi Germany, the society believed it was OK to murder Jews and others. Did that make it right?”

    That is another example of what is always bad. I should have added society that uses humanism ethics determines what is good. That was my bad. According to humanism human life is sacred, so killing Jews would always be wrong no matter how a society justifies it.

    “Isn’t that exactly what we’ve seen for thousands of years? God and his standards of right and wrong were taken out of a society’s equation”

    What standards were those? The Bible supports slavery, yet now most Christians know slavery is wrong. The Bible also supports immoral acts like when Abraham was willing to sacrifice Issac, the massacre’s carried out by Israeli soldiers, the death penalty for people who work on the Sabbath, witches, gay people, people who don’t listen to their priests, women who are not virgins on their wedding nights, the list goes on.

    ” and before long the society collapsed. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Rome, Greece, and now we’re seeing exactly that played out in the United States. We’re murdering babies, applauding deviant sexual behavior, and ignoring the outright lawlessness of public officials while stripping God out of every corner of the society. As a result, the nation is in moral and economic free-fall.”

    No that is the result of the stripping of the glass steagall act and allowing greedy bankers to give home loans to anyone- even if you can’t afford it. Nothing to do with faith and as the founding fathers state in their treaty’s America never has been a Christian nation. You can’t murder something that has never been born.

    “Before I knew the Lord Jesus Christ, I did all sorts of immoral things. I lied, stole, blasphemed God’s holy name, cheered on the abortionists, lusted after women, hated people who didn’t think like I did, etc. etc. But remember, morality can only exist and be understood if there IS a perfect moral giver—God. The secular humanist only knows right from wrong because God exists. They may not acknowledge it, but humanist’s moral standards come from God, not society. Without God, morality would be totally subjective, changing from person to person and society to society over time as people’s ideas changed.”

    So your saying you would go out and kill and rape people?

    “That’s a foolish question for the same reason as my asking if YOU literally witnessed your conception. The answer is “obviously not.” Moses wasn’t around and neither were you. God spoke to Moses, sometimes by Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate form as The Angel of the Lord as witnessed at the burning bush and elsewhere in scripture, and other times by what method we are not specifically told.”

    So no one actually saw creation take place.

  • seon says:

    Ok Tom let me get this straight (please forgive me if I am wrong)one of the arguments you use against evolution is we never witnessed it and can’t be seen in the lab (I’d disagree when it comes to micro evolution). Yet you admit no one witnessed the act of creation?

    I’m talking about intermediates of fossils that prove God created man from mud. Do we have any of that mud left over?

  • Tom Tom says:

    Responding point by point:

    “Humanism’s standards are human reason and logic, not faith or pretending to know what it true. It respects the value of human lives over everything so the morals that come from it are about respecting human life.”
    Human reason and standards keep changing. What one person considers valuing a human life, another does not. Consider that up until 40 years ago it was literally a crime to kill an unborn baby; but overnight in a Supreme Court decision in 1973, it became OK to murder the unborn.

    “If everyone was a humanist killing would be bad no matter what the reasoning because it takes away human life, which is sacred.”
    Everyone who lives in certain native tribes of cannibals believe it perfectly acceptable to kill and eat people. Does their human reasoning trump yours? Who is to say they are wrong and we are right? Without God and his perfect standard of right and wrong, no one.

    “Society as a whole determines what is good.”
    So what you’re saying is that the majority rules? In Nazi Germany, the society believed it was OK to murder Jews and others. Did that make it right?

    “Also, if we went out and raped and stole from people and there was no social justice then societies would fall apart and we would go back to tribalism or worse, so think how many generations humans would have left.”
    Isn’t that exactly what we’ve seen for thousands of years? God and his standards of right and wrong were taken out of a society’s equation and before long the society collapsed. Babylon, Medo-Persia, Rome, Greece, and now we’re seeing exactly that played out in the United States. We’re murdering babies, applauding deviant sexual behavior, and ignoring the outright lawlessness of public officials while stripping God out of every corner of the society. As a result, the nation is in moral and economic free-fall.

    “But I’m taking about you, Tom, would you seriously have no problem with robbing and killing an atheist family (to use a certain reality TV star’s analogy) if you take God out of the equation? Would you seriously start doing immoral things?”
    Before I knew the Lord Jesus Christ, I did all sorts of immoral things. I lied, stole, blasphemed God’s holy name, cheered on the abortionists, lusted after women, hated people who didn’t think like I did, etc. etc. But remember, morality can only exist and be understood if there IS a perfect moral giver—God. The secular humanist only knows right from wrong because God exists. They may not acknowledge it, but humanist’s moral standards come from God, not society. Without God, morality would be totally subjective, changing from person to person and society to society over time as people’s ideas changed.

    “And again did Moses literally witness creation or just report what a voice in his head told him?”
    That’s a foolish question for the same reason as my asking if YOU literally witnessed your conception. The answer is “obviously not.” Moses wasn’t around and neither were you. God spoke to Moses, sometimes by Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate form as The Angel of the Lord as witnessed at the burning bush and elsewhere in scripture, and other times by what method we are not specifically told.

  • Ken says:

    Hi Seon,

    Yes, having evil manifest thru humans is part of the plan.

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    Seon, I would say that Paul’s words match the theme of John’s prologue to his Gospel where he refers to Jesus as the eternal Word, part of the divine community, the one who created all things, the one who brings light to all. John reports, “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” (John 1:14) So this was not just Paul’s opinion but was the understanding of all the followers of Jesus.

    I still disagree with your premise that evil is a thing to be created; evil is the absence of good just as darkness is the absence of light. God has existed in perfection for all eternity but it has been the created ones who chose to reject Him which means they chose evil. We blocked out the light of the goodness of God so that we could live in the darkness. John wrote in his first letter, “God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.” (1John 1:5) Jesus said, “I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.” (John 12:46)

    So the Bible is clear that God is light and humanity is darkness; that was our choice. But God’s love for us and His purpose for us resulted in Him coming to shine His light into our darkness and to set us free.

    In your understanding of God, He is both light and darkness; good and evil. How do you know what is good and what is evil? If He is not the standard of what perfect goodness is, what is the standard? If God does evil, is He also subject to karmatic justice? Doesn’t He then lose His divine nature and need to enter the cycle of reincarnation until He perfects Himself again? If He isn’t subject to karma, why does He demand that we do?

  • Seon says:

    Jamie-

    Oh so evil was always around? At least your God deals with the problem of evil. And we have to come to God willingly and willingly choose good. Evil is still around though, according to your faith he gave us a way to avoid being evil but it is still hurting us.

    That’s just Paul’s opinion, I never understood why Paul is revered so much. Al he did was claim to have seen the risen Jesus. Even if that’s true, Jesus allegedly appeared to 500 people as well and they didn’t write half of the NT.

  • Seon says:

    Tom-
    Humanism’s standards are human reason and logic, not faith or pretending to know what it true. It respects the value of human lives over everything so the morals that come from it are about respecting human life. If everyone was a humanist killing would be bad no matter what the reasoning because it takes away human life, which is sacred.

    Society as a whole determines what is good. Without God taking away a human life would decrease the chances of human’s surviving as a species. Also, if we went out and raped and stole from people and there was no social justice then societies would fall apart and we would go back to tribalism or worse, so think how many generations humans would have left.

    But I’m taking about you, Tom, would you seriously have no problem with robbing and killing an atheist family (to use a certain reality TV star’s analogy) if you take God out of the equation? Would you seriously start doing immoral things?

    And again did Moses literally witness creation or just report what a voice in his head told him? (assuming he wrote the first 5 books of the Bible)

  • Tom Tom says:

    Comments and questions from your earlier post Seon:

    “Humanism also gives us good morals without the need to invoke a supernatural creator.”
    Really? How does it do that? What is the absolute standard by which humanism compares what is good with what is bad? Without an absolute standard, there is only a “conception” of what is good or bad. One person’s bad is another person’s good. It simply becomes a matter of opinion and not truth.

    “Science might not have the moral system religion and philosophy offer but there is a reason to be good.”
    Really? What is the reason to be good, and who determines what is “good”?

    “Pretend we were wrong and there was no god, would you stop being good and go out and rape and kill people?”
    Without God, what would be the problem with going out and raping and killing people? Why would that be wrong? Even with God some people think doing those things is alright. Take a look at ISIS for example.

  • Tom Tom says:

    As for Moses writing the first five books of the Bible, please see http://www.josh.org/resources/study-research/answers-to-skeptics-questions/did-moses-write-the-first-five-books/

    Did Moses actually see the act of creation? Did you actually see your mother and father conceiving you? Does that mean you weren’t actually conceived?

    The term you should be using is “creation,” not “creationism.” Creationism is the belief in creation. Creation is the actually event.

    No, creation cannot be seen in the lab for the same reason your conception can’t be observed in the lab. It occurred in the past.

    What do you mean by “intermediates”? Do you believe man was created, or do you believe man evolved from lower kinds of creatures?

  • seon says:

    Kenneth- Couldn’t God have designed the universe where evil wasn’t an option? Or are good and evil forces that have always existed?

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    Wherever there is the possibility to choose good there will also be the option to choose evil, otherwise there is no choice. Evil is not something that is created, it is chosen. That is not to say that God is unable to overcome evil. He proved that on the cross when Jesus died; the evil choices of humanity led them to destroy God, but God used that treacherous choice to defeat evil in this world. He offers everyone the gift of freedom from evil, but it is still a choice and not everyone will choose to receive God’s gift.

    If God had created us without the freedom to choose He could not have the same relationship that He has created us for. Our interaction with Him would be an instinctual pattern that was ingrained, rather than a choice. There are plenty of creatures that already have that kind of relationship with God. But God created us to have a unique relationship with Him; we were created to reflect His nature which opened a connection that no other creature has. In order for that to be a reality God chose to give us the freedom to choose to love Him or reject Him. That unique relationship could not have been possible otherwise. So you are right, if we had no choice we wouldn’t know the difference, but God would.

    The sacrifice of Jesus started before His death on the cross. Paul records a creedal statement for us in his letter to the church in Philippi that helps us understand what sacrifice Jesus made:
    “Though he was God,
    he did not think of equality with God
    as something to cling to.
    Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
    he took the humble position of a slave
    and was born as a human being.
    When he appeared in human form,
    he humbled himself in obedience to God
    and died a criminal’s death on a cross.” (Philippians 2:6-8)
    So Jesus’ sacrifice started when He gave up His divine privileges and became a human. But the ultimate sacrifice was when He took on the sin of the whole world. He felt the weight of guilt and shame like nothing anyone has ever felt. He was cut off from the divine community with God the Father and God the Spirit. We have no idea what that was like for God to experience a separation from Himself like that. Our limited language and understanding can’t even describe what happened there on the cross. I would imagine that the physical pain was only a fraction of what suffering He made.

  • seon says:

    Jamie-

    Henry Ford didn’t create every scientific law in the universe or the possibility of men getting drunk. When God created the universe he created EVERYTHING evil, the law of gravity, evolution (debatable to some I know) every possibility. Unless the possibility of evil has always existed. Then if God can’t defeat evil is he really all powerful?

    Well if God didn’t create the POSSIBILITY of evil would you really miss out on much? How would you know you are missing out on anything if the possibility of evil never even existed?

    If God is all powerful and immortal how is dying on the cross a sacrifice? I mean he sure paid a penalty if he did suffer that’s low and agonizing death on the cross.

  • seon says:

    Tom-

    So how exactly do you know Moses wrote the rest? Even if someone added something to the end of the book of Moses after he died did Moses actually see the act of creation? Can creationism be observed in a lab? Do we have any intermediates? Ie the mud God created man from? I’m not sure about this mud to man creationism.

  • Kenneth says:

    I love you guys

    Here’s my take on Evil. I think it’s man made. All the 7 deadly sins inherently within us like greed, jealousy, envy etc (which does not make one evil), those negative egotistical emotions manifest into hate. When a person does not learn to control their ego and negative emotions, that behavior becomes part of their character. It propagates from generation to generation and can get ugly! Let’s break some chains people!!!

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    Hi Seon, I am not sure what happened; your comment, my response and your question to Tom all ended up on another article.

    I don’t agree with your premise that because evil exists in this world, God must have created it or He created the possibility for evil. God created humanity to have the freedom to choose to love Him or to reject Him. We chose the latter, so we are the source of evil in this world, not God. Your scenario is like blaming Henry Ford for every person killed by a drunk driver; he created the possibility for that to happen so he is responsible. That is nonsensical, it is the choice of the drunk drivers that created the evil.

    The idea that a universe could be created where creatures have a free will but they could never choose evil is an impossible paradox That is like asking if God can create a rock that is too big for Him to lift. You are asking God to create a contradiction which is illogical and does not fit His nature.

    If God were to defeat evil He would have to destroy humanity, because we are the source of evil. He would be justified in doing that. Instead He has made a way to justly pay the penalty for sin, and redeem humanity for the purpose that we were created. He sacrificed Himself for us and then offers to us HIs very own perfection. That is quite a gift, don’t you think?

  • Tom Tom says:

    The Bible is not absolutely specific on the subject, but it does say God and Moses spoke with each other so there’s every reason to believe God simply revealed those things to Moses verbally. As I believe you already know, the Bible says, “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” 2 Peter 1:20-21

    We aren’t told specifically who wrote of Moses death but it was likely his successor Joshua. Does that really make any difference?

  • seon says:

    How did he tell Moses? Who put in the part about Moses’s death?

  • Tom Tom says:

    They didn’t have to. The God Who created all things personally told Moses the details He wanted known.

  • seon says:

    Tom, did any of the people who wrote the Bible witness creation?

  • Tom Tom says:

    Absolutely! It’s called the Bible.

  • seon says:

    Um Tom what about creationism? Has it ever been observed or recorded?

  • seon says:

    Jamie,

    FOr some reason my reply didn’t show.

    Anyway, I’m talking about God creating a universe where evil is possible. Q is my favourite btw but if he never created the possibility that evil exists would we be missing out on anything?

    Evil can’t come from good. Unless those forces were always around. Then if God can’t defat evil can he be all powerful? Or could he possibly be evil and good?

  • Canadian Jack says:

    Tom:

    We are 90% bacteria,fungi and viruses. See below.

    https://www.brainscape.com/blog/2015/06/what-are-humans-made-of/

    How quickly did become this complicated?

  • Tom Tom says:

    Molecules-to-man is a description of the basis of evolutionary thinking–that all living things started from a primordial soup of random molecules and one day, POOF! life spontaneously started, eventually developing over billions of years into the life we now observe.

    Scientifically, that has never been observed or recreated. Therefore, science has not proven where we came from. And while natural selection within kinds of living creatures is an observable fact, man coming from single celled creatures is scientifically impossible.

  • seon says:

    Also, what on Earth do people mean by “molecules-to-man evolution”

    Do we call adults sperm to man living creatures?

  • Tom Tom says:

    Natural selection is NOT molecules-to-man evolution. It only selects genetic TRAITS that already exist within a kind. No new information is added through natural selection. In fact, science has proven that no new genetic information is ever added–it can only mutate–and mutations are almost 100% detrimental to the species.

    See:
    https://answersingenesis.org/natural-selection/is-natural-selection-the-same-thing-as-evolution/

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    I agree Seon, God has existed with all of His goodness for all eternity. Evil has come into that through the choices of the created order. Goodness is not a force or a standard that God measures Himself against; God is the definition of what good is. He is the standard by what is defined as good.

    Well Seon, when you get to be an all powerful deity you can make that choice of how you will make your universe :) But follow that through to its logical conclusion: what kind of a universe would it be if you forced everything you made to love you and to only do what was right? Would that truly be love? Couldn’t you be accused of being a narcissists with a low self-esteem that required propping up by the creation of an world of ‘yes men’? I’ve watched a few Star Trek episodes where different beings have set up a similar scenario and the emptiness of their existence is revealed in the fact that there is not choice not to love. Now Star Trek isn’t the ultimate source of truth or philosophy but I think Gene Roddenberry had this right.

  • seon says:

    Jamie your explanation of why there is evil (the opposite of good) is a good point but forgets the fact that before the universe existed there was just God. There was just an all good being and no evil. Or are you saying good and evil always existed and are infinite forces like God?

    Well, if I was an all powerful deity and all good I wouldn’t create the possibility of evil at all. Good just can’t create evil.

    Science isn’t atheistic or theistic, it’s just science. Natural selection explains how humans evolved. Humanism also gives us good morals without the need to invoke a supernatural creator. Science might not have the moral system religion and philosophy offer but there is a reason to be good. Pretend we were wrong and there was no god, would you stop being good and go out and rape and kill people?

    Yeah there must be a reason for jump starting the big bang. Different faiths have their reasons (I researched them all) so it is an interesting topic.

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    What makes you think that a good God would not create a universe where evil was possible? Evil, like cold and darkness, is the absence of something, not the presence of something. There is no such thing as a ‘darkness generator’. The only way you have darkness is by removing, or blocking the light. Cold can only exist when heat is removed. Evil exists only because we block the goodness of God. Right now that blockage is partial; we still receive the goodness of God through His presence here with us. The evil in Hell will be complete because the presence of God will be totally absent. But that does not mean that God is evil, partially or otherwise.

    How does science explain why we are here? Science cannot even explain how we got to be here, never mind explain the purpose for us being here. On the contrary, atheistic scientists will say that there is no purpose for us; we just are. It is only through God that humanity has any purpose for existence.

    If there is a God, then we are here for a purpose. If He has created us for a purpose then we are compelled to live out that purpose, wouldn’t you say?

  • seon says:

    I don’t believe God is worthy of being worshiped and when you put it that way, maybe not loved. As I said, a good God would not create a universe where evil was possible. So what we call God must be both good and evil. (That’s why I asked for your definition) And science pretty much explains why were here. Philosophy or religion gives us the ethics. So I say why worry? Why not enjoy the life God has given us. Even if there is just one life or multiple lives? And don’t be jerks while we are at it.

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    That is interesting Seon, I had kind of assumed from some of the things that you have written that you have a relationship with God. The way you described ‘going home’ and that the purpose God had for us is to know Him and love Him. Those seem to be difficult to pull off with an impersonal force. I have always thought that a lot can be discerned about God by looking at what He has made. When I look at the centrality of relationships to the human experience it has always seemed to me that God would also be relational and personal. So how does one love a force? I can love the way aerodynamics allow me to take flight and soar through the sky but I can’t love it like I love my kids. It is two totally different things.

  • Seon says:

    hey Jamie,

    I guess I view God as more of an impartial force. Just a being who set forth the natural scientific laws which caused the universe to come into existence. So no, I don’t believe in a personal God or demons who make us do naughty things. And thanks for sharing your views too. It’s good getting to have a dialogue like this with Christians.

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    It is interesting Jack, how conversations with you always come around to sexual orientation :)

    You say that God knows the violent tendencies of all creation; where do those tendencies come from?

    I am not so sure that sexual pleasure is a very effective remedy for those violent tendencies; in fact, in many species there is a great deal of violence during the mating season as potential suitors battle each other. The great Trojan War was fought over Helen of Troy. Aren’t there female species that kill and eat their mate after the have copulated? I think you have misinterpreted God’s purpose behind sex.

  • Canadian Jack says:

    Jamie:

    Jesus lived and died a Jew. HIs views on homosexuality come from the Bible of his people. This would be the the Mind of GOD that Jesus knew.
    http://sweettp.tripod.com/

    Homosexuality is inborn as is heterosexuality. I have no recollection of choosing a sexual orientation. I was born with one. So it is with all of GOD’s creation.

  • Canadian Jack says:

    Jamie:

    For someone to engage in sex with their own gender is a Biblical Sin. GOD and the bible are in fundamental disagreement. GOD created homosexuality in birds, mammals and insects. Sex is the way creatures avoid violent confrontations with each other. GOD knows the violent tendencies in all of creation. GOD countered that by giving Sexual pleasure to all creatures. Go to this site to witness the true Mind of GOD.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    Hold it Jack, the Bible is clear that Adam was the culpable one for original sin. Yes Eve was the one whom Satan addressed himself and who first ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, but as we read the story, Adam was right there and abandoned his role of leader and protector. The text says, ” The woman was convinced. She saw that the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious, and she wanted the wisdom it would give her. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it, too.” (Genesis 3:6) The Old Testament condemns Adam for the sin, “But like Adam, you broke my covenant and betrayed my trust.” (Hosea 6:7) The New Testament writers as well point to Adam as he one who sinned, “When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.” (Romans 5:12) Never once will you read that Eve is the perpetrator of original sin.

    You are twisting the words of God Jack; saying that God ‘prefers’ to murder His creation is a gross misrepresentation of Him. Yes, He does deal out justice to those who oppress and murder others. He stands against those like the Canaanites who were sacrificing their children to Molech and following all sorts of evil painted as ‘religious’. But that is not His ‘preference’. The Bible clearly states that God relented from punishing them for 400 years, giving them opportunity to repent from their wickedness. He sent Abraham and his family to be an example and testimony of a loving, just God. We know that there was a godly priest/king in the area named Melchizedek who would have been telling people to repent of their ways. And that is just the pieces that we have recorded in scripture; who knows what other ways that God tried to stop the wickedness of these people. That is a lot of grace shown to a people, and reflects God’s preference for them to repent.

    The problem with you and I sitting in judgement over the acts of God is that we are so limited in what we can know. There is so much more going on that we are completely unaware of.

  • Canadian Jack says:

    Jamie:

    Satan was a snake in genesis. He induced Eve to eat of the apple of knowledge. For this crime Adam and Eve were driven from Eden and eternal life on this earth. A story like that would certainly instruct men to put limits on women’s freedom. Were it not for Eve all of us would live eternally. James whose to say that it was not God but Satan who inspired the men to write this negative view of women. If you read the story of Exodus, you read of the elimination of the Canaanites. GOD prefers to murder his creation than teach them to improve their behaviour. Again why would you not reach the conclusion that this too is Satanic. A GOD of LOVE does not inspire men to write hateful messages. A GOD of LOVE prefers that his children prefer an ephemeral existence of knowledge rather an eternal life of ignorance.

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    Absolutely, followers of Jesus are actually doing just that: following Jesus’ example. But it is not out of fear but out of love and gratitude.

    Thanks for sharing your understanding of the nature of God. So would you say that God has personality (i.e. He has a will, emotions, can have relationships with others, etc) or is God an impersonal force that just is and does but not with any thought or intent?

  • seon says:

    Hey Jamie,
    But Christians should still try to follow the teachings of Jesus. I know some of them are hard to follow (like when he said he was here to turn father against son, his old fashion teachings on divorce, to hate our parents) but I don’t see the Christian faith as just having faith in Jesus. If every Christian followed his actual teachings (apart from the bits I have a problem with) the world would be a better place.

    I see your reasoning. Your world view teaches Hitler still wasn’t saved (some say he was catholic, some claim he was an atheist but that is another debate) so that means in the end he made the ultimate sin against God in your eyes. But remember, while Hitler’s crimes were bad humanity as a collective allowed him to carry out the Holocaust. And we still allow these monsters to carry out these crimes to this day. We never learn.
    That doesn’t seem like heaven to me, having to agonize over your loved ones. Plus I wouldn’t worship the being who sent them to the torture chamber.

    I would define what we call God along the lines of the Deistic view which is an powerful being, a source where our souls came from but not one worthy of worship. Here’s why: God is all powerful, right? And supposedly all good? So why would an all good being create the possibility of evil? I know you would probably argue Adam and Eve brought evil into this world but he still created the possibility that by biting into that apple Adam and eve would bring evil into this world. So why would an all good being even bring in that possibility? Why not take evil out of the equation all together before designing the universe? The God I believe in isn’t good or evil, just a Source. I believe a balance between good and evil, male and female etc are essential. Plus if God is all powerful it’s like Superman ignoring the suffering of the people of Earth when he could save them. He is either willing to allow evil which makes him evil or unable to prevent evil which makes him not all powerful. So why worship a being like that?

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    I don’t have any fear of Hell because I have every confidence that Jesus’ death paid my penalty. I also know that my faith comes from Jesus in me. Jesus said, “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:39-40) So my life is not governed by fear. I wouldn’t say that about everyone who calls themselves a Christian though. There are those who have misunderstood what it means to be a follower of Jesus; they are under the deception that it is about how well they can follow the rules. Paul wrote, “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.” (Galatians 5:1) That means we are free from having to try to earn our place with God and can live under His direction rather than trying to follow a moral code. Those people would live under a fear of Hell or losing their faith. The remedy for that is trust in Jesus’ complete victory over the hold sin has on me and live in the freedom of following Him.

    For Hitler’s sin against humanity you are right, he does not deserve to endure the suffering of Hell for all eternity. That is because those whom he offended are of limited value, just like all of humanity. But for his sin against God he does deserve to suffer separation from God for all eternity because God is of infinite value. Same with me, my sin against God deserves an eternal punishment. Fortunately, Jesus died for my sin, for your sin and for Hitler’s sin, and because He is God, His death is infinitely effective to cover the sins of the whole world. We all have the opportunity to trust in that payment for ourselves.

    Yes, I am sure that I will grieve, but as I explained in my last comment, that will be perfectly balanced with my awareness that it is the just result of their choice to rebel against the eternally valuable God. I don’t know how that will work but I trust knowing a perfect God will make it all clear. If imagine many families are faced with the tension of loving their criminal family member and grieving their incarceration but also realizing that justice needs to be served for the wrongs they have done. In Heaven that balance will be much easier to achieve because I will have the benefit of perfect intimacy with God and a perfect expression of emotions.

    Defining God is a daunting task because He is unlimited so I could go on forever talking about who He is. But to be brief let me say, I believe in God as eternal Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; God created and sustains the universe; God in His perfection is alone worthy of worship.

    How would you define God?

  • seon says:

    Jamie,
    But you still fear hell if your faith in Jesus wavers, right?

    How is that justice? I mean they have suffered for their crime in this life but still get punished for all eternity in the afterlife, it just doesn’t seem fair. Even Hitler doesn’t deserve to be in hell for all eternity. Maybe 100 years for each victim but even that isn’t all eternity.

    Come to think of it if you like justice how is blaming someone’s son for the sins of their father justice?

    So you will grieve for your loved one’s burning for all eternity. Good. Won’t it bother you that they are not with you and you know they are suffering?

    You raised an interesting point about God. How would you define God? I just assumed you would give the standard Biblical definition.

  • seon says:

    Hi Jack,

    It’s an interesting story but Jamie’s response is typical. When you believe men in black pyjamas with pitchforks are behind every evil thing that goes on in the world and give us false memories of past lives and psychics false memories of someone who has crossed over it’s easy to discount any alternative to your faith. I also find it ironic that even if there was any proof Christians would just say it was demons. But also, Jamie seems to be sceptical about some things but not apply that level of scepticism to his own faith. The memories COULD be something else, same with faith.

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    Well Jack, I try to avoid speaking for God on issues that He has not spoken to directly. I acknowledge that His ways are higher than my ways and His thoughts higher than my thoughts, so I know I will get in over my head trying to explain for Him why He has acted the way He has.

    That said, the Bible does speak about the relationships between men and women, so we can look at those. One of the things we see in the Bible is that God has established roles for the family that reflect the roles within the divine community: God the Father is the authority over all and delegates authority to God the Son and God the Spirit. Jesus, the Son of God, is one with the Father, but submits to the authority of the Father and follows His direction in everything. The Spirit is sent by the Father and the Son to accomplish the purposes of God and to honour the Father and Son. This can be seen in many of the acts of God described in the Bible: God spoke the universe into being (Genesis 1), Jesus was the one who created all things at the command of the Father (John 1:1-2), and it was through the power of the Spirit that the universe was created (Psalm 33:6). Similarly, God the Father sent the Son to redeem the world (John 3:16-17), the Son obeyed the will of the Father and gave up His life for us (Luke 22:42) and was empowered by the Spirit of God to accomplish redemption (Luke 4:18).

    God has crated to the family to reflect these different roles as well: the husband/father is the head who delegates authority to the wife (Ephesians 5:23), the wife submits to the authority of the husband (Ephesians 5:24), the child(ren) go out from the parents in obedience to bring honour to them (Ephesians 6:1-2). Let me be clear, this division of roles is not because one member of the family is more value or important than another, because we know that God is perfectly unified within the Trinity. But when the family is built on that model it becomes a clearer reflection of the nature of God and helps us better understand Him.

    Now I don’t know if that is the reason that God principally used men to write scripture. But it has nothing to do with God valuing men over women or a statement of who is smarter.

  • Canadian Jack says:

    Jamie:

    Why would GOD inspire principally men to write the OLD and NEW testament. Women are endowed by GOD with a thicker corpus callosum than in men. That means there is a superior connection between the hemispheres in their brains. The are more women graduating in the sciences, medicine, law, engineering, architecture, philosophy, literature etc. Why did not GOD not inspire the superior sex to create the Bible?

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    Ideally, a Christian lives a moral life out of love and gratitude, not out of fear. Paul wrote, “God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline.” (2Timothy 1:7) There is no fear of punishment for the follower of Jesus because the penalty for all our sin was paid for by Jesus’ death. The motivation and strength to do good is out of gratitude for what Jesus has done for us, out of love for Him, and through His presence and leading in our lives.

    You asked why God doesn’t let someone’s completed sentence for their crime be enough to pay the penalty for their crime. The reason is because the penalty they are paying is for the impact they have had on society; we say “They have paid their debt to society”. But that does not mean that their debt against God has been paid. Again it goes back to the intrinsic value of the one offended: the standard for human offense is “eye for an eye” or something like that. But God’s eye is of infinitely more value than our eye, if you will excuse my use of anthropomorphism.

    The Bible doesn’t give those kids of details of what interaction there is between the suffering of those in Hell and those in Heaven. Jesus parable of the rich man and Lazarus seems to suggest that there is a possibility of interaction, but it is too small of a reference to pull too much detail from. But as we behold the infinite value of the Creator, the justness of the penalty for rejecting Him will be clearly seen. I can’t fully envision that now because my understanding of God is limited now. But right now my heart grieves for those whom I love that have rejected Jesus. It is a huge motivation for me to show His love for them and to tell them the truth. We also have the testimony of scripture that our rebellion against God breaks His heart as well. There are times in Jesus’ life when that grief showed itself and He weeps for the sinful choices of those around Him. I don’t know how that will manifest itself in Heaven but you can be sure that God experiences emotions perfectly and so will those who are welcomed into His presence there.

  • seon says:

    Not really, as I said I do good because I want to be good. Who knows, maybe the documented cases can be debunked. Either way as I said I do good without fear of punishment. If you stopped believing in God would you stop being moral?

    It also makes more sense then hell. As I told Tom, what if we did the time for our crime? Shouldn’t that be enough for God? I suppose a Christian would argue they still died an atheist so are still deserving of hell.

    But are you seriously telling me you wouldn’t want to help your unsaved family member who is screaming in agony while you are worshiping the being who is punishing them?

    Actually, I don’t think we see the big boss until we have achieved whatever it is he or she wants us to. But like with life God’s presence can be felt everywhere.
    And it is probably like waking up from a nightmare. You know when you try to feel your body on your bed and imagine the real room your sleeping in…

    Exactly, how do I know testimony from people I have never meet that can’t be verified be accurate? If they are little devils trying to manipulate us that is possible but I have not seen any evidence of demonic activity. I believe humans are bad because we are both good and evil.

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    Hi Jack, it is an amazing story, but reincarnation is only one possible explanation for the memories that little James has. As I suggested to Seon, wouldn’t it also be possible for spiritual beings who witnessed the events of James Huston’s life and planted those memories in James Leininger’s mind? Jesus called Satan the father of lies; his lies always have the goal of deceiving as many as possible to draw them away from God. That is exactly what this situation has done for James’ parents and many others who have heard the story. So how do you discern which explanation is the more accurate? That’s why the Bible is such a valuable resource: it is a consistent testimony of God that we can measure all other claims against. Depending on our own personal feelings make our beliefs susceptible to all kinds of influences that we have no way of verifying.

  • Canadian Jack says:

    Jamie:

    The father of this boy had his Christian beliefs shaken when he found his son had lived before as a Second World War pilot. James go to this site and let know what you think.

    http://www.iisis.net/index.php?page=semkiw-reincarnation-james-leininger-carol-bowman

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    I see how the idea of starting new again would be an intimidating prospect. I know that in the reincarnation religions it is not a blessing but it is the torment that motivates to living morally or attaining enlightenment to escape the eternal cycle of life and death. However, I would say it is a more attractive option then an eternity of suffering in Hell.

    So if each life is bracketed by an experience at home with God, why doesn’t that face-to-face interaction with God purify the soul and motivate a moral life?

    I know there are testimonies from people who have memories of previously lives; I assume that is the documented cases to which you refer. How do you know those testimonies are accurate? If the Bible is telling the truth about Satan and demons who are deceiving humanity, they would have been able to monitor people’s lives from the past and then plant those memories in someone else in order to lead that individual and others astray. How can you have confidence in that kind of testimony which cannot be substantiated?

  • Seon says:

    Hi Jamie,

    Good questions as always.

    That is correct but in the end when we have gained enlightenment (whatever it is) and are ready then we get to re join our creator.

    Yes, what we do in these lives affect our future lives. But I try not to concern myself with the afterlife or my future life. I do good because my morals tell me it is the right thing to do and I want to contribute to bringing heaven to this life. I believe if I can help one person each day and made their day better my day has been worthwhile.

    Yep I am referring to what happens to our souls until the day of judgment, some Christians I talk to tell me we sleep until we get Resurrected (but I know not one Christian speaks for all Christians, it’s a diverse faith). But you are right, I forgot about that parable. So at least now I can tell them Jesus taught when we die we go to heaven or hell right away.

    So why bring back our physical bodies if we are already in heaven or hell? How can those souls feel any pain since they no longer have the physical bodies nerve system to tell them they are in pain?

    Actually, I don’t believe in Reincarnation because it brings me comfort. I believe when I get reborn I will pick different parents, plus the idea of entering my new body knowing I will loose my memories of the amazing afterlife and my past lives and start again is scary. But it has more documented cases then any view of the afterlife and makes perfect sense, our bodies are just temporary vessels and like computers. When one breaks down the user just logs into another one and starts everything from scratch.

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