Can You Connect to God Without Religion?
Is there a difference between God and Religion? There is definitely a difference between God and religion. God is someone I have a relationship with. My view on God can be altered by many factors in my life. It can be affected by my relationship with my own father or even by my culture and the people I spend time with.
I see religion is a set of beliefs that have guidelines for behavior associated with them. There are many religions with many differing beliefs and rules. I don’t think God needs religion. He wants to have a relationship with me. It is so easy for me to get confused and think that my relationship with him has rules of engagement. I love knowing that God cares about me and that my relationship with him does not need a lot of order and structure. I want to participate in religion or church to celebrate his holiness, but it’s not a condition of knowing God. Do you believe you can you connect to God without religion?
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Comments are also welcome!
good article and thank you for posting this and good comments on this thread
Seon:
Precisely. People are being driven away from Christianity because it believes in a GOD that threatens, Nobody enjoys being threatened. Obviously, the people who wrote the Bible lived at a time when the world was filled with hateful souls. That is why the Bible speaks to those people not to us. Islam can be a kind faith. But hateful souls distort its message. That is the danger in words. Words are subject to interpretation. Hateful souls enjoy feeling safe that is why they ofter choose leadership.
I know I asked this before but I’ll ask again. If hell exists when Christians reading this go to heaven, will you see unsaved family members burn in hell? Will you care or not care to see them suffer for all eternity or will God hide this eternal torture from you? If so, won’t you wonder where they are after a few hundred years? How can anyone enjoy eternal paradise when the God they worship is torturing the people they love? Or don’t they care?
Thank you CJ, but I’ve already found him in my heart!
Tom;
Satan is a figure described in scripture. If Satan exists, he would divide humanity along religious lines. Throughout human history people who interpreted scripture differently have committed violence against those that differ from them. This hatred continues to this very day. I am closer to death than you Tom. I welcome my next incarnation more immediately than you your much later journey to your heaven. If heaven does not exist, than you will learn one second after you die how horribly wrong you have been since your 46th birthday. There is still time for you to find GOD in your dreams.
CJ–
While I duly respect your feelings and experiences, how do you know they are from God? Satan is the great deceiver. How do you know your experiences and dreams are not from him? With what standard are you comparing what you’ve experienced? Without a firm standard, is there not a possibility you have placed your faith in something that is not true?
I base my experiences and beliefs on the standard of the Bible. It fully and carefully explains what happened and is happening to me. There are millions of other Christians who can testify to the same thing. Yes, we could all be wrong; but at least we have a written standard by which to compare ourselves.
While there are some minor similarities between what you and I believe, there are many things that are totally contradictory between your and my beliefs. Therefore, we are either both wrong or one of us is wrong. We can’t both be right. Therefore, again, I ask what standard are you using to judge the truth of your beliefs?
Tom:
Thank you so much for the detail in your answer. These are my circumstances:
I am now 70 years old, Up to middle age I believed fervently in scripture, One night while dreaming, the Lord spoke to me and said “You must change before the end of your present incarnation”
In my dream about GOD, He manifested as a cloud formation, I awoke in a cold sweat. On peering out my window, everything was enclosed in a fog. By the fifth decade of my life, I finally understood GOD’s words. I could only truly find GOD by abandoning religion, I also understood a dream I had in my twenties.. I was murdered in the dream by an intruder. I felt the bullet burning a hot hole in my belly. I collapsed and felt my life escaping me. I was startled in my dream to see my lifeless body from above. I then awoke.
I now understand that GOD wanted me to know, that we live an infinite number of lives. It is more likely than not that we occupy but one of many universes. Through out eternity, these universe like precision clockwork bang together and initiate creation all over again.
GOD leaves no fingerprints but GOD speaks to all of humanity in dreams.
Heaven is right here, Hell is created in our negative attitudes.
CJ–
OK, you asked for it!
While at one time I would have considered them circumstances, I now know that all the little details of my life have been directed by an omniscient God who loved me and wanted a relationship with me. These details, only some of which I share here, were all part of God’s behind-the-scenes plan to bring me to himself.
As a little boy I had a fear of dying. I’d cry myself to sleep thinking about what it would be like for my grandparents and parents to die. I’d think about my own death and it scared me. My mother, having been raised a Roman Catholic and not ever having been born again spiritual, could only comfort me with words like, “Don’t worry son. You don’t have to be concerned with that for a long, long time.” In other words, she could offer me no peace or hope.
I was agnostic until I was 46, ridiculing the Bible, God, Jesus, and religion in general. I more or less believed in evolution–what I’d heard on TV and in school. I never really investigated its validity for myself. My favorite subject in and out of school was science.
Twice before the age of 46 I was nearly killed in accidents. I was inches from having my head crushed by a fork life, and I came within inches of hitting a stand of pine trees head on at 45 miles per hour. Every piece of that SUV was destroyed, but I didn’t get a scratch. Neither time did I give death a single thought. I considered myself “lucky.”
At 46, I watched my dear aunt die from a tumor on her neck. As I sat in that hospital room watching her die, the fears that I thought I’d left behind as a boy 40 years ago came flooding back. “What would happen to me at death? Where would I go? Was there a God? Was there a heaven or a hell?” I absolutely know now that God was using that situation with my aunt to stir things up in my heart.
Here’s some of what the Lord orchestrated in my life both before and after that moment. Keep in mind that if even one of these events hadn’t occurred, the entire story would be different:
1–I became interested in fixing up my house and enjoyed learning how to remodel things.
2–My long string of jobs working in manufacturing companies came to an end in California.
3–My father, whom I hadn’t seen in 15 years, suddenly called me out of the blue and I felt compelled to go visit him in N.C.
4–My wife and I liked the area and decided to move from California to start afresh.
5–A friend of my father’s suggested I might try working for real estate companies fixing up rentals they managed.
6–Over the next 15 years, that business grew to a 3/4 million dollar a year business.
7–My aunt died. Over the next 6 month–
8–I needed to move the business out of my home.
9–I bought an old Wendy’s restaurant and converted it into offices
10–The office building was right next door to a radio station.
11–The radio station needed extra parking and approached me to trade advertising for my business for parking spaces which I had.
12-I met with the station manager who also had an on-air program playing old records.
13–I’d been collecting old records since I was a teen.
14–The fellow asked if I’d like to join him on-air one day to talk about old records, which turned into a weekly event.
15–One day after the program, I sat down in his office and a scripture verse he had written above the door caught my eye. “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.” When he entered the office, I said half under my breath, “I wish I could believe that.” Without saying a word, he reached into his desk drawer to retrieve a newspaper clipping describing how a woman had put a gun to his head some years back and pulled the trigger. The bullet inexplicably did not penetrate the skull although his ear drum was destroyed by the impact. She then turned the gun on herself with fatal results. He mentioned his own walk with the Lord and invited me to the Sunday school class he taught.
16–Several weeks later on Father’s Day 1998, at the end of the service, I spoke these words under my breath: “God, I don’t even know if you exist; but if you do, I want to know you. I want to have a personal relationship with you like these other people seem to have.” Obviously, there wasn’t much faith in that prayer, but God saw that I was sincere. I walked out the door of the church that morning not feeling, thinking, looking, or acting any differently. But on the way home, someone cut me off in traffic and I swore at them. Instantly, it was as if someone slapped me on the side of my head and an unheard voice said, “You aren’t to do that anymore.” For a millionth of a second I thought it was my wife speaking. But I now know it was the Holy Spirit of God who had seen the desire of my heart that morning and taken up residence within me. The next day, I picked up my copy of Playboy magazine and instantly felt a revulsion for it. I “knew” this was not God-honoring, threw it away, and haven’t viewed that stuff since. Little by little, day by day, he has changed me. I think differently, my desires have changed. I began to read the Bible with an understanding I’d never had before. It just simply became obvious that it was the true Word of God. He even changed my heart from one that absolutely hated children (I’d gotten a vasectomy prior to marriage so as not to have kids) into a person who ended up on the board of directors of a crisis pregnancy center, and chairman of the board of the local Child Evangelism Fellowship. None of these did I cognitively seek; they were simply things that God was changing inside me, just like the Bible describes.
The subsequent 17 years have been filled with one adventure after another. God closed down my once thriving business at the end of 2007, and in 2008 I was ordained to the gospel ministry.
Oh, I failed to mention that since that day in 1998, I have not a single moment of fear of death. I know the God of creation. I know where I’m going when I die. As a dear pastor friend of mine once said, “I know that I know that I know.” It’s the same knowledge that has allowed millions of people from the apostles of Jesus to the Christians lined up on the Egyptian beach to boldly proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord, even in the face of death. No one who is not born again spiritual can possibly understand what that’s like.
Thanks for bearing with this long answer.
Tom:
What circumstances brought you to our Lord at age of 46.
Hey CJ, some people get fooled by the scam when they are adults. It’s still sad to see the end of reason but also good to see how far I’ve come.
CJ—
No need to feel sorry for me. I grew up in a home that was far from the Lord. I didn’t come to know him until I was 46 years old. I now have a wonderful, personal, and yes, LOVING relationship with God and Jesus Christ, and I have the Holy Spirit of God living within me. He imparts his truths to me every day through his living and perfect Word, the Bible. He is everything to me, and I anxiously await either his return or for him to call me home to be with him forever in glory.
Tom:
I feel sorry for you. Your world view is a narrow and inflexible one. GOD does not threaten. You must have grown up in a home that holds to the belief-spare the rod spoil the child. You desperately need the warm love of our Creator. GOD wants you to change before you die. You will learn this in a dream. Trust the creator to impart this truth to you.
Hopefully people who want the truth will search Creation.com and Answers In Genesis for the truth about the supposed transitional fossils. Since none of them are between one kind and another kind, they are only different species of the same kind and therefore not transitional. Ultimately, everyone will know that God is the Creator about one second after they die. Unfortunately, it will be one second too late for the unbelievers.
“Live long and prosper.”
I’d like to know what exactly and “Evolutionist” is, do we have a club?
Science isn’t an ism. It is about knowing the truth and if we can be proven wrong we will change our view. Faith is about pretending to know and never changing your opinion even when presented with masses of evidence that you are wrong. I would rather know how things came to be then guessing the answers.
I know I won’t change your mind, it’s already made up. But I provided a list of transitional fossils that you requested so hopefully someone sitting on the fence will read this thread and see they are actually fossils. Yes, we can’t believe everything dr google says but they are links to scientific papers which will actually answer your questions if you really do want answers.
Seon—
As for your response to Irreducible Complexity, you have spoken like a true evolutionist. You are ignoring the impossibility of complex things whose components depend on each to exist, simply evolving over time. Evolutionists are quick to say a Creationist will defer to “The Bible says it and I believe it,” while invoking the magic talisman of “Given millions of years, anything can evolve.”
Yes Seon you can Google anything you want these days. But you fail to remember what Mark Twain said, “Don’t believe everything you read.” Stating things and stating reasons to believe them are two different things.
Natural selection has absolutely NOTHING to do with Macro-evolution. Natural selection (which is actually an improper term—“Nature” doesn’t select anything because it doesn’t have a mind to be able to select) can readily be seen and happens over short time spans within species. It has NEVER been observed to change one kind into another kind.
Seon, earlier I specifically asked that we keep this to one or two things at a time due to the complexity of the arguments involved. You have now included Noah’s Ark, evolution, fossil record, prophecy, apostles, Jesus, and several things I’ve lost track of. This is simply too wearying. In addition, when you take something like irreducible complexity and simply slough it off as something evolution can explain (which it simply can’t) it becomes obvious that your presuppositions about evolution are simply too ingrained to allow you to see objective truth any place else. At this point I can only pray the Lord will be merciful to you. I must leave you to him and get back to other duties.
Seon–
SEON—
As for your list of prophecies that didn’t come true, they all fall under the headings of “Yes, they did,” They aren’t prophecies in the first place,” or “They will be fulfilled at Jesus’ second coming.”
For example:
Genesis 26:4—“I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed.”
Partially fulfilled at Jesus Christ’s first coming (all the nations being blessed), the final fulfillment will be during Jesus’ millennial kingdom rule and reign.
Jonah 3:4 & 10 explain themselves. Jonah issued a final warning to Nineveh. They heeded the warning and were spared. (One hundred years later, after once again falling into apostasy, Nineveh was completely destroyed.)
Matthew 1:22-23—“Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”
Matthew, writing to an unbelieving Jewish audience, used a multitude of Old Testament prophecies to show how Jesus Christ (and others) perfectly fulfilled those prophecies. This is one of those. Matthew 27:9 is another.
Isaiah 52:1—“Awake, awake, Clothe yourself in your strength, O Zion; Clothe yourself in your beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city; For the uncircumcised and the unclean Will no longer come into you.”
When restored, Israel will know that the Lord has done it. This will be fulfilled in the Millennium.
There are more than 1700 Old Testament prophecies. How many have to be accurate for you to accept them as such?
SEON–
1a. Not if those stories were written before the Biblical stories.
So, by that reasoning the fiction book written in the late 1800’s about an unsinkable ship called the Titan that hit an iceberg and sank, is actually where the story of the Titanic comes from?
1b- if every book in the Old testament as from God why are they so many contradictions and different writing styles? Can’t god keep his story straight? Or did a Rabbi hear the stories and decide to write it down? How can we be sure any of it is true?
There are no contradictions. There are different writing styles because God is not limited to one writing style. Why shouldn’t we believe it is true?
1c- Google Wikipedia List of transitional fossils we have plenty. And I have looked into the arguments for creationism, they prove there is a need for a creator but any God could fit the category. Hindus could use the argument to argue for their God, Muslims could use it to argue for Allah. I think it is all just different ways to see God.
Wikipedia is written by fallible man. The Bible is written through men by an infallible God.
1d- A list of transitional fossils that show one species changing into another we have is: Eoraptor (~230 Mya), the Herrerasauridae (~230-210 Mya), the Ceratosauria (~220-65 Mya), the Allosauroidea (180-90 Mya), the Deinonychosauria (150-65 Mya), Archaeopteryx (~150 Mya), the . . .
(I’ve shortened your list for brevity.) Every example I see here is an example of a species of dinosaur. Which ones have been verified to be something halfway between a dinosaur and something else? These are examples of MICRO-evolution, not MACRO-evolution. Oh, and a further internet search (for example Creation.com) reveals that many of these have already subsequently been eliminated as supposed transitional forms.
1f—That is saying if you are a Christian and take the entire Bible as literal. But many Christians don’t. Also, I don’t believe Paul saw Jesus and was an apostle. So the only texts that article can quote is what Jesus said. And even if his lineage is true evolution could also be true. And Adam and Eve still could have been the first to evolve into humans. Many Christians I know would disagree with yourself and that article.
What do you mean by “literal(ly)”? Does anyone take poetry as literal? I hope not or they’d be pretty mixed up. I take the Bible’s history as history, poetry as poetry, and prophecy as prophecy. As for Paul, you can believe what you want but the Bible is clear that he saw the glorified Jesus Christ and was blinded by it. God says Adam and Eve were his first “created” humans, not his first “evolved” humans.
3—As I said before they are contradictions and changes in writing style. If it was all inspired by God the writers would have gotten their stories straight.
Their stories are beautifully intertwined with no error or contradiction—proof they were God-inspired.
4a—Where is the evidence to back up the Bible? The many books do not prove it to be true.
What proof are you looking for? You have 66 books that each verify what the others are saying.
4b—Google Controversial T. Rex Soft Tissue Find Finally Explained
Now Scientists are admitting those things can survive for all this time
Funny how “scientists” keep changing their minds about the supposed “facts” of evolution.
4c—And how long did it take them to build the Ark? How long did it take Noah (who was one man and didn’t have access to modern technology)? Or did God help?
The Bible says it took 120 years to build the Ark. What makes you think Noah didn’t have any help? Among many possibilities, he had three healthy son’s-in-law to assist him.
8— Do you realize how long it takes for one species to evolve into another? It’s not as if all of a sudden poof one species gives birth to an entirely new species.
Yes I do. It takes forever because one “kind” (not species) simply cannot and does not evolve into another. If evolutionists didn’t include millions and billions of years in their theories, they’d have to rely on the Bible, and that’s the last thing they want to do.
All those things could be explained by evolution. Animal instincts evolve over millions of years the way our instincts evolve. I mean, we are still evolved to have the fight or flight syndrome or to worry about the dangers beyond the cave and the unknown. And of course survival. So it is the same with those species instincts.
The argument of complexity can be explained by evolution as well. Google evolution of the eye. The reason I tell you to google these things is I don’t want you to believe me, look at the evidence. Evolution takes millions of years and I am sure you will be able to find explanations to your questions.
Also, evolution is not random. Did you even know about natural selection when you “Believed in evolution”?
Your links just explain why fundamentalists can’t accept evolution. Obviously if you have a literal interpretation of the Bible evolution and Christianity contradict each other. Also, I find one of your links with the church claiming “evolutionists” indoctrinate kids very ironic. They carry on about that yet brainwash their kids into believing the Bible.
And they are other forms of dating that prove the Earth is older than 10,000 years. But the YEC would say God made everything to look that way.
So what do you think of the transitional fossils? I have more examples if you want.
And here is a small list of prophecies that didn’t come true. Genesis 26:4, Isaiah 17:1, Isaiah 19:4-5, Isaiah 19:18, Isaiah 52:1, Ezekiel 29:10-11, Jonah 3:4, Jonah 3:10, Zechariah 11:12, Matthew 1:22-23, Matthew 2:23, Matthew 12:5, Matthew 24:34, Matthew 27:9, Matthew 26:64
1a. Not if those stories were written before the Biblical stories.
1b- if every book in the Old testament as from God why are they so many contradictions and different writing styles? Can’t god keep his story straight? Or did a Rabbi hear the stories and decide to write it down? How can we be sure any of it is true?
1c- Google Wikipedia List of transitional fossils we have plenty. And I have looked into the arguments for creationism, they prove there is a need for a creator but any God could fit the category. Hindus could use the argument to argue for their God, Muslims could use it to argue for Allah. I think it is all just different ways to see God.
1d- A list of transitional fossils that show one species changing into another we have is: Eoraptor (~230 Mya), the Herrerasauridae (~230-210 Mya), the Ceratosauria (~220-65 Mya), the Allosauroidea (180-90 Mya), the Deinonychosauria (150-65 Mya), Archaeopteryx (~150 Mya), the Confuciusornithidae (145 Mya), the Enantiornithes (145 Mya-65 Mya), and the Euornithes (65 Mya-recent) (Sereno 1999). Figure 3.1.1 shows the forelimbs of four representative intermediates of the avian lineage (Carroll 1988, p. 340; Carroll 1997, p. 309).
(site: talkorgins)
• Coelophysis (late Triassic) — One of the first theropod dinosaurs. Theropods in general show clear general skeletal affinities with birds (long limbs, hollow bones, foot with 3 toes in front and 1 reversed toe behind, long ilium). Jurassic theropods like Compsognathus are particularly similar to birds.
• Deinonychus, Oviraptor, and other advanced theropods (late Jurassic, Cretaceous) — Predatory bipedal advanced theropods, larger, with more bird-like skeletal features: semilunate carpal, bony sternum, long arms, reversed pubis. Clearly runners, though, not fliers. These advanced theropods even had clavicles, sometimes fused as in birds. Says Clark (1992): “The detailed similarity between birds and theropod dinosaurs such as Deinonychus is so striking and so pervasive throughout the skeleton that a considerable amount of special pleading is needed to come to any conclusion other than that the sister-group of birds among fossils is one of several theropod dinosaurs.” The particular fossils listed here are are not directly ancestral, though, as they occur after Archeopteryx.
• Lisboasaurus estesi & other “troodontid dinosaur-birds” (mid-Jurassic) — A bird-like theropod reptile with very bird-like teeth (that is, teeth very like those of early toothed birds, since modern birds have no teeth). These really could be ancestral.
Cite: Wikipedia
Culex molestus
1e—You stated, “we have so much evidence for evolution we don’t need those fossils.” Please name one such other evidence. (Remember, we’re talking MACRO-evolution.) P
Well as I cited we have many follies that prove Macro-e. But lots of evidence for evolution.
1f—That is saying if you are a Christian and take the entire Bible as literal. But many Christians don’t. Also, I don’t believe Paul saw Jesus and was an apostle. So the only texts that article can quote is what Jesus said. And even if his lineage is true evolution could also be true. And Adam and Eve still could have been the first to evolve into humans. Many Christians I know would disagree with yourself and that article.
1g—No, Christians can be scientists. I would however question the scientific credentials of a scientist who claimed the Earth was 10,000 years old.
3—As I said before they are contradictions and changes in writing style. If it was all inspired by God the writers would have gotten their stories straight.
4a—Where is the evidence to back up the Bible? The many books do not prove it to be true.
4b—Google Controversial T. Rex Soft Tissue Find Finally Explained
Now Scientists are admitting those things can survive for all this time
4c—And how long did it take them to build the Ark? How long did it take Noah (who was one man and didn’t have access to modern technology)? Or did God help?
5—As I explained not me, I didn’t want to know about evolution until I researched what it actually said. But yes, people are biased and maybe I am to an extent.
8— Do you realize how long it takes for one species to evolve into another? It’s not as if all of a sudden poof one species gives birth to an entirely new species.
Let’s look at the Pacific Golden Plover, a shore bird that summers in the Arctic and winters in Hawaii. It is about the size of a dove, and shortly before it migrates it gains about 70 gm of weight in fat. In autumn flocks of these plovers take off straight over the ocean for Hawaii for an 88-hour flight. The plovers cannot swim, so the flight has to be nonstop, since there is no land on the way. They burn 1 gm of fat per hour, so they should all fall to the ocean long before they reach Hawaii. However, they fly in formations, like geese, and that cuts down on their energy consumption, since wind resistance is reduced for all the birds except the leader. The birds take turns leading the flight, spelling each other to conserve energy. And the birds land exactly where they landed the year before. Even the young birds who have never migrated before know exactly where to fly. The birds have navigation mechanisms and instincts that approach perfection! How could this have occurred step by step, gradually, over millions of years? If the birds hadn’t made it all the way to Hawaii on the very first trip the species ever took, they would all have drowned in the ocean and become shark food. Obviously we are looking at intelligently designed perfection in planning and navigation, but the birds cannot think and plan. The instinct, involving millions of neurons, billions of neuronal synapses, and exactly the right responses to stimuli, had to be instilled in the birds as soon as they were created by God. In addition to their energy conservation and homing instincts, the plovers make corrections for wind and weather, all without thinking.
The Disarticulated Jaw: Darwin’s theory holds that all complex forms of life evolved from lower forms. Let’s evolve a reptile into a mammal, paying particular attention to the ears and the jaws of both types of animals. All reptiles have six or seven bones in their lower jaws, and one bone in their ear. All mammals have one massive lower jaw bone, the mandible, and three ear bones (the incus, stapes, and malleolus). According to the evolutionary stories, a few bones of the reptile, over millions of years, disarticulated from the jaw and migrated into the ear to form the three mammalian ear bones. There is no evidence for this, since no transitional forms exist in the living world or the fossil record. They just evolved, we are told. Science must always be evidence-based. Actually, the evolution of reptiles to mammals has been disproven by a disease in humans call TMJ temperomandibular joint disarticulation, in which the mandible has become dislocated. Disarticulation means that a bone has come out of its joint, and it always cripples the functioning of the joint. It is very painful to humans, and they have trouble eating until their jaws are rearticulated. In the imaginary evolution of the reptile to the mammal, we are required to postulate millions of imaginary transitional animals over millions of years, several of whose jaw bones have disarticulated and are floating toward (but are not yet articulated in) the ear. We have to imagine that the transitional animals—that evidently couldn’t hear or chew since both functions were in transition—survived and thrived for millions of years until their floating bones finally made it into the ears and magically articulated the right way with each other.
In irreducible complexity, each part must be present and able to contribute toward the functioning of the whole. Even if natural selection were a plausible explanation for favorable genetic development (which it is not), the transitional forms required by evolutionary theory would not have survived without an intentional, deliberate effort being made to coordinate every change in one component with comparable changes in every other component so that the organism as a whole could continue to function. But that would lead to an overarching Intelligence being involved in the process, which is something that naturalistic evolution cannot allow. And, as we have seen, introducing God into the equation as theistic evolution does still cannot make evolution the reasonable choice for the origin and irreducible complexity of life.
DNA and proteins are both absolutely essential to the genetic make-up of a cell. Proteins are absolutely essential to make DNA. DNA is what tells proteins how to operate. Therefore, both the incredibly complex DNA and complex proteins would have had to evolve at exactly the same time and in perfection in order for either to exist!
Conclusion: Almost every living thing shows evidence of perfect design, and in the very few instances where the design may appear flawed, we can attribute it either to the passage of time and entropy (through random mutations) on the genome, or to our lack of adequate research and knowledge. If God is the Creator of all things, we would expect to see exactly what we do see—fearfully and wonderfully designed life.
Seon—
(Let’s correct the term—it is “creation” not “creationism”. An “ism” is a belief in something, not the thing itself.)
Let’s start with irreducible complexity.
Living things are machines, and their organs are machines. Once we understand this analogy, we can grasp the overwhelming evidence for intelligent design in living things. Could organs possibly have randomly pieced themselves together, structure by structure, over millions of years? This isn’t even remotely possible, since every part of the organ is necessary, and the organ—just like one of our machines—cannot function unless all the parts are there, in the right place, and specifically fueled. A random (atheistic evolution) or even purposeful (theistic evolution) gradual addition of a piece of an organ at a time, over millions of years, means that the transitional animal had to carry, and nutritionally support, a useless organ. Natural selection would select against the incipient stages of a new organ, easily preventing, not promoting, change.
Consider the eye: Furnished with automatic aiming, automatic focusing, and automatic aperture adjustment, the human eye can function from almost complete darkness to bright sunlight, see an object the diameter of a fine hair, and make about 100,000 separate motions in an average day, faithfully affording us a continuous series of color stereoscopic pictures. All of this is performed usually without complaint, and then while we sleep it carries on its own maintenance work. Sight is possible because of this remarkably intricate instrument that translates light impulses into information that can be carried along nerve pathways to the brain, where it is assembled into the “picture” that the eye has taken. We know the eye to be a far more sophisticated instrument than it appeared a hundred years ago. Electro-physiological studies have recently revealed very intricate connections among the nerve cells of the retina, which enable the eye to carry out many types of preliminary data processing of visual information before transmitting it in binary form to the brain. The cleverness of these mechanisms has again been underlined by their close analogy to the sorts of image intensification and clarification processes carried out today by computers, such as those used by NASA, on images transmitted from space. Today it would be more accurate to think of a television camera if we are looking for an analogy to the eye. Will a television camera work with half its parts in place, such as the half-evolved eye is expected to have done? When we begin to ask the simplest questions about the imaginary transitional forms, evolution collapses like a house of cards. And as amazing as the human eye is, it is by no means the most complex example available. Unlike human eyes which are composed of a single lens, trilobite (extinct marine arthropod) eyes have a very special double lens design with anywhere from 100 to 15,000 lenses in each eye, depending on the subspecies. This special design allowed the trilobites to see underwater perfectly, without distortion. Implicit knowledge of Abbe’s Sine Law, Fermat’s Principle, and various other principles of optics are inherent in the design of these lenses. They appear to have been carefully designed by a very knowledgeable physicist, and indeed the creationist would agree – they were! Eyes don’t work right unless all the parts are present, all at the same time. What good is an eye without all its parts? What if the eye had everything but the retina, or everything but the iris? What about the ocular muscles, those specially-coordinated muscles that turn the eye where it needs to go? What if the animal had all the eye parts but one such muscle? Every time it moved its eye it couldn’t quite zero in on the object it needed to see. The eye, as well as all the other organs of the human body, demonstrates irreducible complexity. That is, nothing in the organ would work (for most imaginary scenarios) or at least work right7 until all the parts of the eye were in precisely the right place. All the parts of organs are necessary for the organs to work (with rare exceptions), so Genesis 1 is infinitely closer to the truth of origins than Darwin ever was.
Animal instinct is another puzzle that cannot be solved by evolution. Instincts involve the extremely complex sense organs of the animal, which then send electrical signals by neurons (nerve cells) to the brain. Then the brain must process (interpret) the mass of signals (which could range in the millions per second), formulate a solution, transmit the solution via electrical signals by other neurons to the appropriate muscles, which then must, in a coordinated manner, get the animal’s body to react properly to the stimulus. Let’s say that a giraffe, drinking at a pond, sees an animal running up on one side. How does the giraffe know whether it is safe to stay there and keep drinking? Millions of neuronal stimuli are involved in vision and correct interpretation. If the approaching animal were a charging lion, would a giraffe with a half-evolved instinct know what to do? It wouldn’t (by definition). If it remained by the pond, then it just evolved into a meal and not into a better giraffe. If it started running (so far so good), but ran toward the lion, its evolutionary progress also terminated in the lion’s stomach. How did instincts gradually evolve, piece by piece, neuron by neuron, over millions of years? Instincts involve the specific, very complex behaviors that animals of all types depend on every day to survive and thrive. If instincts were not fully programmed into the specific species all at once, like Genesis 1 states, the species would quickly die out. What if a bird with half-developed instincts kept overshooting tree limbs by one inch, and kept having to land on the ground? How long would it survive?
So if I am to look at both sides equally what evidence do we have for creationism?
Seon–
Attempting to address one or two issues at a time, please see:
http://veritasmanet.com/2015/05/29/christianity-and-evolution-compatible-or-contradictory/
and:
http://creation.com/10-dangers-of-theistic-evolution
These articles discuss the eternal dangers of believing in theistic evolution.
Please see this article concerning carbon dating:
http://creation.com/diamonds-a-creationists-best-friend
And please choose one of the articles you will see at:
http://creation.com/search?q=light+from+stars
Well I started off believing Jesus was the son of god and denied evolution. But when I saw the evidence for evolution I decided to base my beliefs around science.
“Religion without science is superstition. Science without religion is materialism.”
““God created it like that . . .” but that isn’t proving anything, is it?”
Exactly, to me it is just putting your head in the sand and fingers in your ear and ignoring the truth that God created the universe 14 billion years ago. The only evidence YEC seem to have is denying the scientific evidence like carbon dating or the distance of light from stars.
As I said with Noah’s ark the whole “Biblical magic” thing doesn’t make sense. God magically poped the animals into Noah’s ark, they sailed around for 40 days and then he magically poped the animals back to the countries they came from? Really? And Noah living to 900, no where outside the Bible is there any record of people living to be 900.
Would a loving god order women to be raped or for his crusaders to set fire to a city? Would a loving god order slavery? Would a loving god order captured women who are not virgins to be put to death? Would a loving god think the father who had his daughter killed his daughter in acts was just? Would a loving god order a man stoned just for gathering sticks on the Sabbath? Would a loving god order the death for witches, psychics, gay people, children who disobey their parents, women who are not virgins on their wedding nights? Would a loving god think a woman being forced to marry her rapist was justice?
I won’t mention the injustice or suffering of children on the modern world as this is about the Old Testament. And Deism explains that.
If revelation wasn’t religious people would be locked up for believing in it. But because it is religious faith believers aren’t deemed insane.
You are right, I should also be open to the evidence of creationism. But why can’t be a creationist who believes God used evolution to create the human species but created our souls “In the likeness of god”?
And none of us know God, we like to pretend we do or have faith we have the only answers but in the end it is just faith. I can’t even prove 100% there is a god.
Tom:
“Let there be light and there was Light” Time for GOD is completely different from mortal time. A day for GOD would be hundred’s of millions of years and would account for the evolutionary record. To blend our present understanding of science with our contemplation of GOD we arrive at a more profound comprehension of what a truly miraculous eternal universe GOD has been projected into our minds, That’s were we all in fact live. Between our ears.
Seon—
I’ll be looking for your response, but in the meantime:
You say, “. . . what’s the point, their mind is made up. Well isn’t that exactly your position? I go back to what I said about presuppositions—most people either start with the belief in evolution over millions of years or they believe God created it in six literal days about 6-10,000 years ago. Proving the arguments one way or the other with EVIDENCE is the goal. But that will only work with someone who is willing to set aside their presuppositions in order to OBJECTIVELY look at the evidence. Frankly my friend, I haven’t seen that open mind in your correspondence yet. Granted, I have a creationist’s presuppositions, but that’s only come about after objectively looking at both sides about 17 years ago. I discovered that most of what the evolutionists had told me wasn’t built on solid ground. Now if you say the same thing about why you believe in evolution, there really is no point in continuing these posts. We’re just using up valuable time.
When you say, “You give them evidence that the Earth is older than 10,000 years old . . . .” However, is there really GOOD evidence that makes sense for that, or is the better evidence for a young earth? It’s not denying the evidence for an old-earth; it’s refuting that evidence based on sound reasoning and observation of the evidence on both sides. I grant there will always be some unanswered questions, but which argument has the preponderance of the evidence? I know that some unlearned people will say, “God created it like that . . .” but that isn’t proving anything, is it?
I contend that when you look at Noah’s ark objectively, it makes perfect sense. What about it doesn’t make sense?
Seon, I say this in all love and respect for you, but you obviously don’t have a clue who Jesus and God are. Your statement regarding God being a tyrant reveals that you, like so many others, do not understand God, his love, his justice, or his dealings with sinful man at all. Anyone who thinks they will face off with God and in their prideful arrogance start throwing accusations at him has no concept of his power, majesty, or authority. He holds your very life in the palm of his hand and could snuff you out in the blink of an eye. He is the one who created the entire, incomprehensible universe with just the spoken word. I absolutely fear for anyone who scoffs at him or his written Word. It is only because of his great mercy and grace that you or anyone exists, and you will stand before him to be judged, not the other way around. (Now please don’t respond to this with, “Just like a Christian—trying to scare people into believing.” No, I’m just telling you the truth.) And whether you believe in the Bible or “don’t like” Revelation, has nothing to do with whether they are true.
Please consider these things very carefully.
We don’t want it to turn into a flame war, however I have no time for history deniers. You simply can’t argue with those people and it is pointless and a waste of time. You give them evidence that the Earth is older than 10,000 years old and they say “God created it like that to test our faith” it would be like trying to argue with someone who still believed the Earth was at the center of the universe. When all the evidence disproves their belief can be written off as “God placed it there to test our faith” what’s the point? Their mind is made up. Same with debating with an atheist. It’s like trying to convince you Zeus exists. And Noah’s ark just doesn’t make sense but I will try to watch my language. And I do try to tolerate other people’s viewpoints. I have looked up the definition of bigotry (a miss used word by some on the left) anyway, I wanted to properly research your other points so I will post tomorrow. Also as to what I will say to Jesus I will ask him why his father was such a tyrant in the Old Testament yet he preached love and forgiveness. I read the Old Testament and I just couldn’t believe in a religion that passed that horror story off as the truth and Revelation seemed well I don’t want to offend anyone but I didn’t like it.
Tom:
The age of dinosaur fossils have been dated with high degree of accuracy. This is usually done without regard to bone marrow in the fossil bones.Radio carbon dating would not be of any scientific reliability in dating fossils millions of years old. Go this site:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIE1aAtomicclocks.shtml
Most deeply religious people have left their faith by reading extensively. In fact due that effort alone all religions with GOD’s help will disappear within 25 years. Within that time frame it is more likely than not, that another civilization will be discovered in our galaxy that may contain people who are as steeped in their version of that “Old Time Religion” as you are. You will then have plenty of company to discuss your respective views on religion. Maybe Jesus visited their planet.
Seon—
Let’s back up a moment. Both of us have commented that we enjoy a lively/intelligent conversation about origins. Also, my last post included a short description of what “presuppositions” are. However, I’m somewhat concerned when I hear comments that typically come from a closed mind; things such as, “creationist nuts,” and “nothing whacky there.” These are what are called, “question begging epithets.” They are used when someone uses biased (and often emotional) language to support a conclusion that is logically unproved. What I’m saying Seon is that we need to keep things civil and based on facts, not emotions. Would you agree?
1a—Stories that sound a lot like biblical accounts are additional evidence that the Bible is true and historically accurate. For example, cultures all around the world have the story of a world-wide flood.
1b—What do you mean “How do the writings in the Bible corroborate each other?” How do they not?
1c—I know there are many claims for transitional fossils. However, to date there are none that have been positively identified as such. (Remember, a transitional fossil is NOT a creature that developed different characteristics and stayed the same kind, but one that is a transition from one kind to another. Please give me the best example of a transitional fossil. (Oh, and have YOU Googled “Evidence for creation”?)
1d—Also remember that micro-e is observed and understood. Creatures within one kind do have small changes over time due to climate and interbreeding. However, that does NOT prove macro-e. You might notice that fossils of birds are basically the same as bird skeletons today. Birds stay birds, canines stay canines, mosquitoes stay mosquitoes, regardless of how many species of a kind there are. There are thousands of different “kinds” of creatures in the world today. Can you name even one that is half-way between one kind and another genetically? If macro-e is true, shouldn’t there be thousands of them or has macro-evolution mysteriously stopped?
1e—You stated, “we have so much evidence for evolution we don’t need those fossils.” Please name one such other evidence. (Remember, we’re talking MACRO-evolution.) P
1f— Please see http://realtruth.org/articles/130530-006.html
1g—You stated, “A true scientist will look at what evidence we have on hand and examine it.” You are correct. However, are you suggesting that the learned creation scientists are not true scientists? If so, that’s another question-begging epithet.
3—We have 26 books written by those disciples, from fishermen to tax collectors to carpenters to Pharisees, and they all tell the same story.
4a—But we do have historical record of man living to 900 years—several books of the Bible—and for the reason I gave you, it’s perfectly plausible.
4b—More and more evolutionary scientists are being completely baffled by the new discoveries of soft tissue, including blood, being found in dinosaur bones. That in itself is incredible proof that dinosaurs did not become extinct millions of years ago. It is scientifically impossible for soft tissue to still be present.
4c—I can’t write dozens of paragraphs about the ark here. Please go to the Answers In Genesis web site and look at the information regarding the ability of the Ark to hold all the necessary animals, food, and water. The full-size ark being built in Kentucky will be “living proof” that the ark was big enough and capable enough to preserve the remnant of man and animal life during the flood.
5—The problem still is one of presuppositions. I can guarantee you that people will “blindly” follow supposed “evidence” if it fits with what they “want” to believe. People in their pride do NOT like to be proved wrong. (Read Romans 1:18-20)
8—Give me one example of macro-e being observed and replicated in the lab. If you can’t, it’s not scientific; it’s theory and hypothesis.
One last note Seon—You write of when “you were a Christian . . .” So you are saying that you once were a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ and have now turned your back on him as the way, the truth, and the life? What will that mean for you when you die?
Tom-
Part of being a truth seeker is being open to all claims of truth. That includes Christianity.
We also have stories that sound a lot similar to biblical stories. These types of stories are common in the ancient world. For example the Samarian tablets and epic of Gilgamesh, isn’t it possible the reason they are so many books is because the Jews heard all these stories and wanted to put their own spin on it? How do the writings in the Bible corroborate each other?
And also we don’t have early copies of sacred writings about those characters (Hindu gods, Buddha etc) the earliest versions we have come hundreds of years after the alleged events. Think about that.
We have transitional fossils, just google List of transitional fossils. Just because we can’t observe something doesn’t mean there is no evidence of it.
A true scientist will look at what evidence we have on hand and examine it. The evidence for evolution is out there, google is your best friend!
The evidence of species changing is proof that species adapt to the climate they exist in. Thankfully we have transitional fossils but we have so much evidence for evolution e don’t need those fossils, they are just the icing on the cake.
And why are chimp organs and human organs similar? II don’t know any scientist who claim we share 70% of dna with chimps.
As I said answers in genisis supports the young earth creationist nuts. And while we are at it why is there only two choices? God or young Earth creationism? When I was a Christian I believed in God but accepted the evidence that the universe was 14 billion years old.
Nope, I’ll try evolution vs god. But the good thing about that video I suggested is you can research it’s claims for yourself.
3- How do we know the disciples were even historical characters and died for Jesus? True if they were real and knew he was a lie they would have known it was a lie and admitted it was a lie to spare their lives.
4- That is possible however the fact that there have been no historical references to humans living to 900 proves that is just fiction. Oh that’s different then, satan just possessed the snake and spoke through it. Nothing whacky there.
How did he manage to get the lions to go into the pen without them attacking him? How did he manage to store 40 days worth of food in the arc? Do you realize how many animals he would have to put on it? What happened when the cruise finished, did God magically transport them back to their countries?
Wait so you actually think Dinosaurs lived with humans like on the Flintstones?
5- When you are presented with evidence something is true you fit your beliefs around the evidence. Ignoring it would be a delusion.
8- And so is evolution. Google scientific facts.
Anyway, the choice “Theism or atheistic evolution” is a false choice given to us by atheists and Christian fundamentalists who believe the Bible is 100% literal.
Seon—
Can’t tell you how nice it is to converse with someone who is open to ideas, wants to share, and I think who is openly seeking the truth.
Let’s keep the “numbering system” since that certainly will make things simpler. At the same time, we might find it easier to focus in on just one item at a time for clarity and completeness. Let’s start with number 1:
Information about Hindu gods, Allah, Mormonism, and the teachings of Buddha, are typically based on the writings or teachings of only one person. In each of those cases, there is little or no corroboration for what they taught. What’s more, if you hold their teachings to the light of historical, archeological, and scientific light you find them less than accurate and downright contradictory and wrong in many ways. With the Bible, we have 66 separate books written over a 1500 year period by at least 40 different people. They corroborate each other and basically tell one seamless story from beginning to end. The known evidence for the validity of the Bible is very high. The writings of other religions have little or no proof whatsoever. Since the Bible stands the reason of authenticity tests, it makes good sense to believe it.
Let’s talk evolution and presuppositions:
First a definition is in order. The term “evolution” can mean slight changes over time within a specific kind of creature based on survival of the fittest and environmental changes. This is MICRO-evolution. We see this all around us. The term “evolution” can also mean larges changes over time that change one kind of creature into another kind of creature. This is MACRO-evolution—sometimes referred to as molecules-to-man evolution. Most often people are suggesting that MICRO-evolution over millions of years becomes MACRO-evolution. However, while we can scientifically observe Micro-e, we cannot observe Macro-e because it would take millions of years of observation to do so.
An evolutionist looks at all the evidence in the universe through the presupposition that it all evolved (Macro-e) over millions/billions of years. Therefore they look to answer the origin question through an evolutionary point of view. A creationist looks at all the evidence in the universe through the presupposition that it all was created in a few days approximately 6,500 years ago. Therefore they will answer the origin question through means of Divine creation. Laying aside either of these presuppositions is not easy to do but it is possible. A better way to start is to have no presuppositions and to look at the evidence in both lights to see which scenario better fits the evidence we see. You have stated a number of “proofs” that I used to believe myself. However, on further inquiry I discovered those supposed proofs were not proofs at all. They were simply statements “learned” people had made based on rather meager information, or they were statements of theories and conjectures and not hard facts at all. They were merely attempts to come to a conclusion. For instance:
Your example of changes of species from one island to another is an example of Micro-e and it is found everywhere in nature. However, not a single one of those species ever changed into ANOTHER “kind” of creature. Birds stayed birds, lizards stayed lizards, etc. They simply changed physical features within their own kind. Darwin himself wrote in his book that if no transitional fossils were found, his entire theory of origins based on natural selection would be disproven. Here we are 150 years later and not a single undisputed transitional fossil has ever been found even though there should be BILLIONS of them.
Did you know that the 95% DNA likeness between chimpanzees and humans leaves out some important information? Not to go into all the details here (I can lead you to the details on the internet if you’d like, but each time I include a URL, it takes a day or two for my post to show up here), but the scientists “map” the DNA of the chimp and then compare only PORTIONS of the mapping to humans, looking for the closest matches. For example, they compare the chimp eye to the human eye, the heart to the heart, etc. It’s pretty obvious those similar things would have similar DNA. But even so, the other 5% of “un-likeness” numbers into the hundreds of millions! When the entire chimp DNA is compared to human DNA, there is actually only about a 70% similarity, which makes sense considering we are similar and from the same creator. Certain kinds of creatures would naturally only be found in certain areas of the world due to their ability to exist in particular climates. There is SO much more to say about DNA, but space on this post limits. I highly recommend Jonathan Sarfati’s book, “Evolution’s Achilles Heal” for detailed further study. You can also check the web sites for Creation Ministries International, Answers In Genesis, and Institute For Creation Research and search for specific topics. I watched some of the youtube video(s) you suggested. Unfortunately, these ARE made for school children—impressionable young people who believe what the adults are teaching, regardless of the lack of proof. They are the same type of learned adults who create college textbooks that are absolutely FILLED with errors and unscientific information which was debunked decades ago regarding evolution. Have you watched “Evolution VS God” on youtube? It’s an interview with several PhD’d professors. They’re asked to give proof of Macro-e.
Quick replies:
#3—Why would so many different people who knew Jesus want to falsify information about him and then go to their deaths defending the lies? What did they stand to gain? Why would Christianity have prospered so quickly when so many people who became Christians in the first century would have known much about Jesus directly and known if the statements were just lies? Many of them too went to their deaths for their belief. It doesn’t make sense.
#4—How long do you suppose we would live today if we had perfect, un-mutated genetics, and there were no diseases or bad bacteria or cancer or whatever? Then let’s throw in a perfect environment. The immediate generation after Adam and Eve would still have had close to perfect bodies that would naturally have lived much longer than we do. Then over the generations, the life span gradually shortened to where we are now. (Side note–Each generation adds about 100 mutations to the genetic code. If we extrapolate backwards, REMOVING 100 mutations for each generation, we would arrive at a perfect human genetically about 6-10 thousand years ago–just like the Bible teaches!)
God didn’t create a talking snake. Satan took possession of a serpent through which he could deceive Eve.
Noah put the lions in their own pen. Even today many carnivores will eat plants when the meat isn’t available.
The full-sized ark that Answers in Genesis is building in Kentucky will answer many of these questions. (So does their web site.) Sloped floors in the animal stalls, leading to a center trough would have made clean-up much easier on the ark.
Only a pair of each “kind” of animal would have been needed on the ark. Only two felines would have been needed to propagate all of the feline species we have today. The average sized dinosaur was about the size of a sheep; and adolescent examples of the large dinosaurs were all that were needed to continue their kind.
#5—Christians who believe in evolution are those who are blindly accepting the un-scientific evidence for macro-e and trying to force the findings into what the Bible teaches. They should be doing just the opposite—reconciling information for evolution with what the Bible says.
#8—No, gravity is a scientific fact. It’s observable, replicatible, and falsifiable.
Hey Tom- thanks for the reply, I decided to quote you so we don’t get lost (except your long paragraphs at the end. I just added my thoughts).
“I can appreciate your struggle to believe what the Bible says to be true; but remember, its contents come straight from the heart and mind of an all-knowing God. “His ways our not our ways, and his thoughts are not our thoughts.” First Corinthians 2:14 tells us, “The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.” However, anyone can understand enough of it to respond to the light it reveals so that God will give more light to that person. At some point, a step of faith must be taken because when it comes right down to it, no one can absolutely prove God or the Bible. (And no one can absolutely prove macro-evolution.) Ultimately, it’s a matter of what the evidence reveals.”
1. Is believing in something because it can’t be dis-proven really a good reason to believe in it? You can’t disprove Allah or Buddha or the Hindu Gods, so why not believe in them? As for not being able to prove evolution happens:
We know for a fact evolution is true. We know from the fossil record, the fact that on one set of islands there is one type of species and another set the same species that happened to evolve to suit the islands climate (google species disruption) the fact that we share 95% of dna with apes and a large percentage of dna with monkeys. Apart from all that we have species that only exist in one climate. Take the Platypus for example. What possible reason would God have to create that? As a joke? Now I know this won’t convince you and a Christian would say “Poof, God did it” but this is for anyone on the fence who may read this discussion. Also I advise you watch “Human evolution made easy” on youtube. It is made for school children but helped improve my understanding of evolution.
“–Jesus was not only fully God, he was fully human as well. In theological terms this is referred to as the “hypostatic union.” If he were not human, he could not have taken our place to shed his blood to pay for our sins. “
2. But that isn’t “Just like Moses” is it?
“–While some of the prophecies could have been “forced to fulfillment” by Jesus, many could not have. The place and circumstances of his birth, his being sold for 30 pieces of silver, his being particularly scourged and crucified, and the fact John the Baptist foretold his appearing were just some of the things outside of his “control.”
3. Could the writers of the gospels have read those “Prophecies” and decided to attribute them to Jesus?
“–While science today cannot prove such things as talking snakes, men living inside great fish, and Noah gathering animals (actually, scripture tells us that God brought the animals to Noah which makes a great deal of difference since he had 120 years in which to do it), science does not disprove those things either. Remember, we’re talking about the miraculous acts of an omnipotent God. If he could create the vastness and intricacies of the universe and all that is in it, he VERY easily could have made a fish (in fact Scripture says he “provided” the fish) in which a man could live for a few days. I think that would be easier than creating a brown cow eat (multiple times) green grass and produce white milk, or having a rather ugly crawling caterpillar turn into a beautiful flying butterfly!”
4. Do you really think humans used to live to be 900? Yes sure, a powerful being who created the universe could do anything but talking snakes, really?
Anyway, saying “God did it” seems like Biblical magic to me. Where did Noah put the Lions? How did he stop them from eating other animals? And in all seriousness who shoveled the animal poo? If every single animal that ever existed in the world was on one Arc they would poop a lot and think of what the smell would be like.
“–Yes, I occasionally question what my preacher says. I then go directly to the Bible to see if what he said concurs with what the Bible says. Man is fallible, the God whose mind wrote the Bible is not.”
5. Ok I’ll change it to this from someone who never questions the Bible. A Christian who accepts the evidence for evolution has looked at the evidence and questioned what they were told.
“–Actually Darwin was not a Christian. A Christian is one who has been born again spiritually through a supernatural act of the Holy Spirit of God. Just as when you are born physically you can’t be “unborn,” once you are born again, you cannot be “unborn” spiritually. At the moment a person repents (turns from their sins) and trusts in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, the spirit within them which is dead due to sin is born again to have a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit that then indwells them. That’s why trying to talk a true, born again Christian out of their faith is a fruitless endeavor; they have the indwelt proof of God (See 2 Corinthians noted above.) and nothing will change their mind/faith.”
6. Well he still wanted to be called a theist. But would someone who wasn’t a Christian really want to be a clergyman?
7. As for your parent analogy, while I know my children would disobey me I would not know exactly what they will do. God is supposed to be all knowing so he knew Adam and Eve would eat from the tree of life, he knew he would cast them out and he got mad when they did. That is different form me letting my children go out to the real world not knowing what they would get up to.
People dying as a result of their activity does not make god a bully but if I punished my child for all eternity for not looking both ways before crossing the road that would make me a bully and a thug. He already died as a result of his actions. What justice would there be if I tortured him in some fiery pit for all eternity?
Same with murderers, what if someone dies from a lethal injection and receives justice yet is tortured in hell for all eternity? How is that justice? Even Hitler’s soul deserves some mercy.
And if you don’t accept Jesus you will be bullied in hell. I’m sure if I did find out hell was real I would beg God to forgive me. So it doesn’t sound like a choice. And bullying is a bigger kid torturing a weaker kid.
And also, do you have unsaved family members? When you go to heaven will you see them burn in hell or will God hide this from you? Won’t you care if they are suffering if you can’t find them anywhere in heaven? Won’t you want to make sure they are ok?
“–You mention “masses of evidence”; I’m assuming you mean for molecules-to-man evolution. OK, give me some of that evidence—SCIENTIFICALLY. You also say that those who wrote “thousands of years ago” knew nothing about origins. OK, so why would someone (I assume scientists) today, supposedly millions of years AFTER man’s origin, think they can definitely conclude how we got here? (Actually they can’t—that’s why they are called “theories.”) On the other hand Moses, writing by the inspiration of the God who was there and created everything, gave specific details about man’s origin. Which source do you suppose would be more accurate?”
8. Hey isn’t gravity a theory? Don’t you think the achievements human beings have made in fields of science and medicine makes us a little but smarter than cave dwellers who made up stories to explain things? Was Moses inspired by God when he had half of the Israelites slaughtered or had the man who gathered sticks on the Sabbath killed?
Speaking of the Sabbath how much of the Old Testament should we follow?
I gave you evidence for evolution in point 1. You can quote me or just say point 1 and point 2 and I will go back to my notes :)
God.
What do you want from a God, protetion, love, affection, truths, justice.
Then again what are this toughts, remnants of humand mind, indulgience in greed, prosperety, hatred.
All this is atributed to god, by many ways, even wars are justifyed by God.
The truth.
Life, love life uncoditionaly, and without predujuse, can you do that.
If I say God is everywhere, all the time, in a reality that is greater than our smal band of persptions of what it produces, our reality.
You blame God for Evil, I say thats beyound the facts, God have given us this realm to grow upon, and in it everything we need to do so.
The fact is with it came our own mind, free will, this is a dubble edged sword, it can do things that goes against the laws sett forth by our creatore, and this actions, whatever they be, slaughterings, is human doings, and have nothing to do with God.
Why do we have wars, where both sides have God on their side, and they even blame God for their own actions, done by the greatest gift given to humanity, free will, and this gift, is what makes us imortal, thats what the teachings of yeshua was about.
Be good, do good things, this makes riples that acumulates more good things.
Have anyone of you tryed a technik called Love Booming, some minore church groups use it, extremly effective, and do try it.
Prodject as mutch Love and care possible to anyone coming infront of you and see what happends, even animals, they notise this imidiatly, good practising.
Thats how powerfull love is, but also evil prodjections can and is used in the same way.
But dont fear a God of mercy and understanding.
WE all sins, some minore some great, repent, reconsile and go on, and then your world will never be the same again.
I have stopped reading “religious” books decades ago, and is instead living as good as I can, dont do thing that isnt good for you.
And after a while, you realise, there is a greater entety somewhere, but the cretaores language is quiet and requires attention, focus and determination.
And if I will recomend ONE book.
The Gospel of peace, the entire collection.
Thats all you need, that the path I go.
You are living light, dont forgett that, light never dies, but this light can altered to slowly diminish and be gone, haterd does that.
Love is the power that feeds this light.
PS: do you know how cats and doggs smile at you, do you, they blink hard with their eyes, since they dont smile, even birds do this.
Make them smile at you, and experiement with love booming, you will be supriced, and I am not in any sence taking about negative, only posetive effects.
peace
Seon—
I can appreciate your struggle to believe what the Bible says to be true; but remember, its contents come straight from the heart and mind of an all-knowing God. “His ways our not our ways, and his thoughts are not our thoughts.” First Corinthians 2:14 tells us, “The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.” However, anyone can understand enough of it to respond to the light it reveals so that God will give more light to that person. At some point, a step of faith must be taken because when it comes right down to it, no one can absolutely prove God or the Bible. (And no one can absolutely prove macro-evolution.) Ultimately, it’s a matter of what the evidence reveals.
Let me address some of your latest comments:
–Jesus was not only fully God, he was fully human as well. In theological terms this is referred to as the “hypostatic union.” If he were not human, he could not have taken our place to shed his blood to pay for our sins.
–While some of the prophecies could have been “forced to fulfillment” by Jesus, many could not have. The place and circumstances of his birth, his being sold for 30 pieces of silver, his being particularly scourged and crucified, and the fact John the Baptist foretold his appearing were just some of the things outside of his “control.”
–While science today cannot prove such things as talking snakes, men living inside great fish, and Noah gathering animals (actually, scripture tells us that God brought the animals to Noah which makes a great deal of difference since he had 120 years in which to do it), science does not disprove those things either. Remember, we’re talking about the miraculous acts of an omnipotent God. If he could create the vastness and intricacies of the universe and all that is in it, he VERY easily could have made a fish (in fact Scripture says he “provided” the fish) in which a man could live for a few days. I think that would be easier than creating a brown cow eat (multiple times) green grass and produce white milk, or having a rather ugly crawling caterpillar turn into a beautiful flying butterfly!
–Yes, I occasionally question what my preacher says. I then go directly to the Bible to see if what he said concurs with what the Bible says. Man is fallible, the God whose mind wrote the Bible is not.
–Actually Darwin was not a Christian. A Christian is one who has been born again spiritually through a supernatural act of the Holy Spirit of God. Just as when you are born physically you can’t be “unborn,” once you are born again, you cannot be “unborn” spiritually. At the moment a person repents (turns from their sins) and trusts in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, the spirit within them which is dead due to sin is born again to have a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit that then indwells them. That’s why trying to talk a true, born again Christian out of their faith is a fruitless endeavor; they have the indwelt proof of God (See 2 Corinthians noted above.) and nothing will change their mind/faith.
–As for why God created Adam and Eve knowing they would sin, consider this:
You and your wife decide to have children, knowing full well that at times that child will disobey you. Once the child is old enough to crawl, you start disciplining the child. Why? For its own safety and understanding of the dangers of disobeying you. Part of that discipline is to tell the child of the consequences of disobeying you. You tell the child not to go near the hot stove top because they could be badly burned or worse. If the child disobeys you and grabs a boiling pan of water, dumping it down their front, they will be badly burned and possibly blinded. Now, who was at fault; you and your wife for boiling the pan of water or your child for disobeying your explicit instructions? Now I grant that all analogies fall short so don’t fault me if this is a poor one. What I’m trying to convey is that it wasn’t as if God hadn’t explicitly warned Adam and Eve. As part of their makeup, God gave them freedom of will to love or not to love; to obey or not to obey. Without that freedom, any love they showed God would have been forced by God. Love must be a choice for real love to exist. Once Adam and Eve sinned, their natures were tainted with that sin. Their offspring would inherit that same sin nature. In other words, you can’t unscramble eggs! And think about it—suppose the sin nature is all a hoax. Suppose you, Seon, weren’t born with the innate desire to disobey (although I’m sure you’ve notice you don’t have to “teach” a child to disobey). How many lies have you told in your life Seon? How many times have you taken something that didn’t belong to you (stealing)? How many times have you used God’s name in vain, without proper holiness and respect? How many times have you hated someone? (Jesus says hate is the same as murder in your heart.) How many times have you lusted after someone) (Jesus says lust is the same as adultery.) How many times did you disobey your own parents? God has warned in his Word that every one of these and more (the Ten Commandments) are his rules for living without sin. So, how many times have you broken his law? God has told us the penalty for sin—any sin—is physical and spiritual death. What’s the penalty if your child disobeys you and runs across the street without looking; very possibly death? So I don’t think punishment is being a bully. Bullying is forcing someone to do something. We have a choice. Punishment is the justice one receives for breaking the law. But don’t forget that even if you’ve broken God’s law ten thousand times, you can be completely forgiven by repenting and trusting Jesus Christ. That’s true mercy, grace, and divine love.
–You mention “masses of evidence”; I’m assuming you mean for molecules-to-man evolution. OK, give me some of that evidence—SCIENTIFICALLY. You also say that those who wrote “thousands of years ago” knew nothing about origins. OK, so why would someone (I assume scientists) today, supposedly millions of years AFTER man’s origin, think they can definitely conclude how we got here? (Actually they can’t—that’s why they are called “theories.”) On the other hand Moses, writing by the inspiration of the God who was there and created everything, gave specific details about man’s origin. Which source do you suppose would be more accurate?
Tom:
Your bible is impairing your vision of the truth, Throw it away and witness what GOD has actually wrought,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_displaying_homosexual_behavior
Just type in the words “Homosexuality in mammals and birds”. Learn the truth on your own. Stop believing in a false god.
CJ—
I’m not sure why you would want to ask a question of someone whom you believe has “monopolized this site” but I will answer.
It is incorrect to speak of animals having anything like a sexual orientation. Animals rarely engage in homosexual behavior as a matter of preference, and studies show that such behavior occurs more when animals are caged or confined than in the wild. However, even in the wild or in captivity where animals have been seen to “mount” another of the same sex, actual sex does not take place. The point is that animals don’t actually have homosexual sex.
Homosexuality in humans is a choice, not a God-given trait. It stems from the sinful desire to disobey God. In the same way, God didn’t create liars, thieves, or murderers. Those activities are a result of sinful man acting out in sinful ways. God’s plan has always been a perfect one, and it is revealed in his Holy Word, the Bible. Saying God’s plan is different from the Bible is an oxymoron.
Tom
Why did GOD create homo and bi sexuality in all mammals? GOD wanted us to be fruitful and multiply but do these diverse forms of sexuality depart from this divine plan? How does your bible depart from GOD’S actual plan?
In regards to Immanuel being a reference the prophecy would have been more impressive if the prophecy went “And he will be referred to as Immanuel”
As to Jesus being like Moses. Well the prophecy said that the prophet would “Be like Moses” as in human. Jesus was God.
I’m still waiting for a few prophecies to be answered, it’s all how you interpret them. It also looks to me if Jesus was real he was trying to force himself to fulfill the prophecies.
Same with the scientific facts in the Bible. You wrote a lot and I’m sure some could be interpreted that way but the Bible also got a lot of science wrong. Snakes never talked, men can’t live inside big fish, women weren’t created from man’s ribs, how could Noah have gathered every single animal from every single part of the planet in such a short time with the limited technology? I could go on but you get the gist.
If Jesus existed and the Bible is 100% true then he was God, of course God has the right to judge us personally. He also obviously taught a lot of other good stuff but love God and love each other seems pretty good to me.
Scientists don’t have faith in anything. You need to research scientific fact and how scientists reach their conclusions. If you did you would realize they just rely on evidence. Don’t believe me though, do the research.
I find what you said about how Christians who believe in evolution blindly believing in what evolutionary scientists say the most ironic thing I have heard all day. Do you ever question what your preacher says?
Those Christians have seen the evidence and realized they can’t deny it. Accepting the masses of evidence is not blindly believing what they are told and by the way many scientists are Christian and Deists like me. Darwin was a Christian, he never set out to disprove religion.
But if God is all knowing then he created Adam and Eve knowing they would eat that apple, why punish them for something he knew they were going to do? And why punish their children for the sins of their parents? They did nothing. This sort of injustice is found throughout the Bible and sorry but that is not justice. Punishing someone for something they never did is just the act of a bully.
Anyway, when the masses of evidence prove something is true why should those Christians continue to make that fact fit around something someone wrote thousands of years ago who knew nothing about the origin of our species or much else wrote? Why pretend to have the answers when the evidence is right there?
Answers in genisis supports a mentally challenged individual who believes humans and dinosaurs co existed, no thanks. It is an embarrassment to the human race.
I hope that covers all of it.
Hi Tom, I’ve been in Sydney for two days but will follow up on your reply soon.
CJ—
I am truly very sorry if you feel my attempts to obtain some reasons for the ideas and beliefs you have shared are not palatable to you. But a blog is not only for sharing ideas, but giving reasons for what those ideas are, and using questions and answers to share why we believe what we believe. Is it not reasonable that one who makes statements of opinions and beliefs should be prepared to give the reasons for those opinions and beliefs? From the beginning, my postings have either been in response to you and others’ questions about my beliefs, or my questions to posters who have contrary beliefs, with the intent of learning why the other person holds those beliefs to be true. If one is not prepared for that type of discussion, they should probably refrain from posting to a blog in the first place.
I plan to continue to answer questions posed while asking for clarification and reasons for the beliefs of others. May I suggest that if you are bothered by my or my colleagues’ postings, you simply don’t read them.
Tom:
Tom you may have sinned. I have not. Please address my question. If cannot than please disappear.
Tom:
You and your colleagues have monopolized this site. Many posters who do not agree with you have been driven away by the drivel you spout. Tom it is you who are completely at fault not I. Absolutely not a single one of your postings has had a thing to do with the central question that is raised by this site. If you have no answer, than simply don’t post. Stop being so bloody stubborn.
CJ–
Well, thankfully I’m forgiven of my sins by Jesus Christ. How about you?
Tom
Why are you so stubborn and rude? You are not a very good representative of the Christian faith. Pride goeth before a fall.
CJ–
Actually, I and others are having a cogent conversation with Seon and others who have legitimate questions for which they desire legitimate answers. Many of those questions are directed toward the Christian faith, and therefore the answers are from a biblical standpoint. As I have expressed more than once, it has not been possible to carry on a conversation with you because to my recollection you have yet to answer even one question posed to you or respond directly to any answer you have been given. It is you, my friend, who seem unable to “participate in the discussion.”
Tom:
This site is about “Can You Connect to GOD Without Religion”. Clearly you have elected not participate in this discussion. All you are doing is proselytizing your religion. Why are you compelled to constantly introduce an irrelevant matter into this discussion? Are you unable to attract more adherents outside your residence?
Seon–
Answering a couple of things you wrote to Chris:
1. Immanuel is the Hebrew word which means “God with us.” This Isaiah passage is included in Matthew chapter 1 as the angel tells Mary of the coming Messiah. The apostles and Jesus claimed Jesus was God and he was certainly with them. The New Testament is recorded in Greek and Aramaic while the Old Testament is recorded in Hebrew and Aramaic. Therefore, while the Hebrew word “Immanuel” would not have been used in the NT, it doesn’t change the fulfillment of the prophecy.
4. A prophet is one who speaks from God. While Jesus may not have specifically been referred to in the NT writings as a prophet, he most assuredly was one by definition.
Sorry, I don’t understand your other points so I can’t comment.
Seon, there are reasonable and plausible responses to every question regarding the prophecies of Jesus. Granted, some are more obvious than others, but in one way or another they are all relevant. How many of the prophecies will have to be answered for you to believe in the supernaturalness of them as a whole? Remember, the odds that even 8 of the OT prophecies being fulfilled in one person, Jesus, have been calculated to be 1 x 10 to the 57th power!
Seon—I understood that part of your concern about judging was about telling someone they are wrong in their beliefs. You also were making the point that Jesus only spoke about love and forgiveness. The verses I gave you show Jesus telling those who think they are good enough to go to heaven on their own merit that they are wrong. Is that not judging? Isn’t telling someone the wrath of God is abiding on them and that they cannot go to heaven distinctly different than preaching love and forgiveness?
Again, scientists DO live by at least a measure of faith. They have faith in the rules of logic. They have faith in their eyes see and what their ears hear and what their fingers touch is real. They have faith in gravity. They have faith in the laws of thermodynamics. And are scientists ever wrong? Sure. There have been many scientific discoveries that have changed what scientists thought was true about something.
I also know some Christians who believe in evolution (I’m talking about the molecules-to-man kind of evolution). However there is a real danger there. The Bible clearly teaches that disease, decay, and death came into the world because of the sin of Adam. Therefore, if God used millions of years of disease, decay, and death in order for man to “evolve” into Adam, God is a liar. Also, if he used all that randomness and confusion and chaos to get to Adam and Eve, how could he have looked at all he made and called it “good”? (As he does in Genesis 1.) The Christians who believe in evolution are those who have blindly taken what evolutionary “scientists” (which is an oxymoron because evolution is NOT scientific) have professed and tried to force the Bible into those findings. Rather, they should be trying to reconcile the scientific findings with what the inerrant Word of God says. Organizations such as Creation Ministries International, Institute for Creation Research, and Answers In Genesis have stacks of information regarding the validity of taking Genesis chapters 1-11 literally, perfectly reconciling them with scientific findings.
Tom- I’ll research your links, however scientists do not have “Faith” they reach their conclusions based on evidence and if they are wrong every other scientist would see the evidence leads to a different conclusion.
And no, I know some Christians who believe in evolution. If you don’t have a 100% literal interpretation of the Bible there is room for evolution.