She Won’t Change Her Last Name
My fiance and I have a great relationship, but there is one thing we cannot agree on. She made a promise to herself, when she was a child, that she wasn’t going to change her last name when she got married. Now that we are together, her idea of a compromise is to wait till she finishes college (four years from now) to change her name to the married name. This is very difficult for me. I am not old fashioned, but the one thing I want in our marriage is unity. I feel very strongly that having our name be the same from the get-go will complete that unity. She suggested hyphening our names, but this would make our combined name over 20 characters long. Am I just being an old-fashioned dinosaur about this? Am I so out of touch with reality to think that this compromise won’t be a good idea?
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I don’t consider myself old-fashioned either, but, I do concur with you about the last name. First of all, when you become a married couple the name change that occurs is a symbol of the couple identity that the two of you are taking on. It’s a symbol of your commitment to one another and to “becoming one”. You love your wife so much that you are giving her your name. Your wife loves you so much that she is taking on a new name. Any children you have will bear that name and carry it into the future.
Secondly, the norm in our society is still for the woman to take on the name of her husband. If you decide to do differently, you will be stepping out of the norm and making it difficult for your children to carry on that name. Suppose your name becomes “Smith-Johnson”. What will a male child pass on if he marries a woman who wants to combine their names — “Smith-Johnson-Schroeder” ? It becomes more and more complicated.
Thirdly, the issue of last names raises questions about the roles of husbands and wives. If you want to take the role leadership in your family passing on your last name will signify that role. The usual role of a married man is that of leader and protector. Be careful here, I’m not saying that the husband is the dominant one or that the wife is not equal, but the last name issue signifies a question about the roles. Who will lead the family? How will decisions be made? Is your finance concerned that if she gives up her name she is giving up her vote in family matter as well? You need to discuss this. This issue is more than “what name shall we choose?” It is an issue with hidden meaning and assumptions about what your relationship will be like and what roles you will take on.
Don’t cave in, talk this through. It sounds like you have a deeper conflict of values and expectations regarding roles. I encourage you to begin working through this. This is really a test of what is going to happen in the years to come in your relationship. Stand up and be a leader. It may mean that you need to post-pone the wedding until you are both happy about the decision you make together. Working through this issue will lay a foundation for how you work through conflict together in the future.
Michael!
Any man tries pulling that LADY crap on me, and he’s liable to get his balls removed!! Don’t assume I’m going to miss a privilege I don’t even need. Men have to do a hell of a lot of work to “maintain ladies” and really ought to thank their creator when a real human woman comes alone, and takes the damn pressure off of them.
And who the heck ever heard of a man dying in child birth? You want to start talking sacrifice?
If I’m going to risk my damn life baring a child, that child’s going to have MY LAST NAME!!!
As for the rules, the reason why archaic rules still exist is because of the idiots who allow them to live.
If you’re so up on the sexist rules that oppress women, I suggest you move to Saudi Arabia. I suppose you don’t believe we should have the VOTE either, since we’re not even human enough to have our own damn names.
Clearly traditions are not rules, because if they were rules, a lot of people would have been stoned to death years ago for not following them.
As for that damned ring, you know full well I would not have accepted it if I didn’t have something equal to give in return (remember the gold cigarette case?)
And don’t go telling me I’m any freaking exception to any freaking “rule” because if it really was a RULE I wouldn’t have had the independent and FREEDOM to “break” it.
Do you believe in FREEDOM, or are you planning to run for the position of dictator somewhere? There’s nothing in the constitution that says women need to follow some archaic tradition, and that a man’s balls will wither and fall off if they don’t.
Michael: “Men of the past didn’t have to deal with the possibility of their wife not taking their name”
Well, I can agree with you there. Go back about 1000 years and no one had to deal with this issue, because surnames simply didn’t exist. I rather doubt men’s poor egos crumbled due to this lack.
Michael: “a woman’s last name does NOT belong to her.”
Sorry, factual exactitude.
How does a man come by his surname? In EXACTLY the same way a woman does. If, as you claim, a woman does not ‘own’ her surname, but it’s only her father’s, how on earth did he get to ‘own’ it?
The simple fact is that a child’s surname is bestowed on them at birth and there is NO legal distinction between the sexes in this regard. (At least, not here in the UK.) So, if a man ‘owns’ his surname then so MUST a woman, or neither of them do. A woman’s surname is as much hers as it is her brother’s.
Joane: “It is … a complete slap in the face to a man when you refuse his name.”
Not this one. I was disappointed when my wife suggested she take my name.
Oh, I get it. You think I (and others like me) am not a ‘real’ man. Well, I’m not very keen on sport. I guess that counts against me. But I can do DIY, does that count?
Leah, the fact remains that a woman’s last name does NOT belong to her. Her first name and middle name are certainly part of her identity. It’s not “her” last name that she keeps, it’s her father’s. Why would a married woman choose her father’s name over her new husband’s name? If you can put yourself in the man’s shoes you can see how that would make him feel.
Most people would agree that a married couple having different last names is very strange. Keep in mind that you are in the minority about this topic. Most women change their names, no questions asked….as they should. So when your husband introduces you to someone he knows, the person might say “Hello, Mrs. (insert name) nice to meet you.” You are either going to have to constantly correct people or just let it slide. And if you let it slide without correcting them, you might as well have your name changed because that’s what you will be called…unless you want to constantly correct people.
Why should the woman have to change her name?
Because that’s how it is. Sorry, men of today didn’t make the rules. It’s not fair to us men of today that just because women can be more independent now, women are all of the sudden choosing to keep their father’s name instead. It’s not fair at all. Men of the past didn’t have to deal with the possibility of their wife not taking their name, so why should we? Once again, put yourself in the man’s shoes and you’d understand.
I meant “dominating.” My auto correct on my phone screwed up.
If men would grow up and stop trying to be so macho, they wouldn’t feel threatened by independent women. It is a slap in our faces when we are made to give up our names to stroke their itty-bitty egos. Men who insist on donating women, and who so easily feel threatened by independent women are likely over-compensating for “something.” A man with a real set of balls is confident on his own, and his manhood doesn’t depend on the oppression of others,
Women should change their names to their husband’s name, as most of them do. It is unacceptable and a complete slap in the face to a man when you refuse his name. Women who don’t change their name need to grow up and stop trying to prove how “independent” they are. You can use online service from http://www.namechangeaftermarriage.org/ Those type of women are a joke and have no place in our society.
Michael. I can think of many times when my mother has been in the paper for the awards she’s won, or I have been in the paper for the book I have published, when we have been referred to simply by our last names. Also, I have female friends in the military who are referred to this way all the time. A woman’s last name is as much a part of her identity as a man’s.
Listen people, since when are last names a part of a woman’s identity? Since when have you heard a woman being called by her last name? Never. How often is a man referred to by his last name? All the time. Last names are not used to identify women. They never have been. A woman’s identity is NOT her last name, so nothing will be stolen from her.
Thank you, Doris. I’m glad I could make you smile.
As for you, “Confused,” if I was paid a nickel every time a man did something stereotypical, I’d be nothing but a cheap prostitute, and though it may be the oldest profession, prostitution is ILLEGAL! LOL
As for my job, what makes you think I am employed? I am currently unemployed, but resourceful enough to be able to live on what little I have. I did this for a half decade before I got married, and my husband does not support me financially AT ALL!! I wouldn’t allow it. I support myself, he supports himself. I will not be bought and paid for by ANYONE!!!
For the record, Canada does not have STATES, I suggest you get your facts straight before presenting your research.
In Quebec it is illegal for a woman to ASSUME her husband’s name as she does in other PROVINCES and TERRITORIES in Canada. She can take his name, but she must go through the same procedure that I went through, when I took my mother’s name. If I’d taken my husband’s name, I’d just have to send my marriage license as proof, and it would be changed like magic. In Quebec, I’d have to legally change my name with the Registrar General, as I did when I took my mother’s maiden name, here in Ontario.
The nice thing about the system in Quebec is that upon my marriage, no one’s automatically going to say “Congratulations, Mrs. Bennett!” Thanks for the congratulations of course, but it’s best not to assume about a name change.
As for me being the exception, I’m obviously not the ONLY exception, since I was not the one who started this discussion. As you can see, I am not the only feminist on this board.
As for testosterone and estrogen, the genders have evolved with society. It’s culture that separates men and women, the way yours and my opinions are separated in this discussion. If I were to put you in a room full of my friends, female and male, YOU would be the exception, and not I. Don’t go assuming I have a small circle of friends either.
Leah my friend you are the exception to all of that . That’s wonderful , however hypothetically , let’s say you didn’t have a job and your only way to make money and provide for your family is to invest. The only two things to invest in would be whenever the man buys flowers or engagement rings and proposes or opens a door or pays for dates or any other stereotypical aspect of relationship or when the woman does, and you would get a nickel each time , where would your money be?…pros and cons to feminism , one big con is there not letting the man be man anymore . There changing nature. Nature intended men to be strong, assertive, bold, sexual — this is why testosterone surges through their bloodstreams. This is a man’s right — his heritage — as a member of the male gender. And the truth is, despite what women say and how much they protest, they want a man who acts like a man. Scratch the surface and you’ll find that deep down they don’t really want a man to act like a woman any more than a guy wants a girl to be masculine. We’re all equal in reality woman control the whole relationship but just let the man be a man. Nothing to do with names I just had to let that out. Doris it is not ILLEGAL to change your name in Quebec , it is a process that no other state in Canada yes but no way illegal , in Canadas other states a marriage license basically does it , in Quebec it is the same process as anyone trying to change there name whether they got married or just want a new one. Cycle are names just important at your convienance? Maybe for you having kids with your name isn’t important but it is to alot more alot, even all those cultures you like to bring up. P.S I have my fathers name and could be any prouder , it didn’t cast a shadow over me one bit and even if it did there isn’t anybody in this worlds shadow I’d rather be under than my fathers . I carry his name like my son will , back straight head high .
Loved your response Leah! It made me smile! It is neat that we don’t have to live by stereotypes, but by what works in each of our marriages. As for which name is used, that really is a cultural issue. As previously stated on this thread, there are places where it is illegal to change your name when you get married(the province of Quebec in Canada is one such example) so there are many different ways this issue is resolved depending on where in the world you live.
“I have children already with my name”
OK, so I’ve never had children, so have never been faced with the choice, but I really do not understand this ‘carry my name’ business. Why is it such an issue for some people?
If you have children (this probably equally applies to wives changing their surnames) you know they are yours. Your family knows. Your friends know. In short, all the people whose opinions are important to you. However, this would apply even if they didn’t carry your surname – which was actually the case for the millennia before surnames were invented – so for whom is the common surname? Other people? People who you have never met and probably never will? Why does it so bother people what other people think? People you don’t know and whose opinion has no bearing on your life?
Hello again, Confused.
Yes my husband was married before…a couple of times, but the answer is not as you think it might be.
First off, he did his damndest to convince his exes NOT to change their names, but they went and did it anyway, much to his chagrin.
Secondly, the day after he went into combat, his first son was born. He and his first wife had picked out a name for him, but when he was away, the lady named him my husband’s name exactly, “the fourth” (my husband is the third). My husband was LIVID!!! The boy deserved his own identity, not to follow in his father’s shadow for his entire life. Hubby knows what it feels like to be in his father’s shadow and DID NOT WANT THAT for his son.
He had another son who took his mother’s maiden name, and Hubby didn’t mind a bit. He actually thought it was a good idea, since women had gotten the short end of the stick for so long. The son now with his last name (again because his mother insisted!!) is the step-son now serving as a Marine, and mark my words, if he found the woman of his dreams, got married, and became Mr. Her Name, hubby would not object one bit. In fact, he’d brag about how evolved a thinker his son was, not to be held back by some archaic old tradition.
Buying flowers? Hubby and I send each other flowers all the time. Flowers, stuff from edible arrangements, just surprise each other with gifts, whatever thoughtful thing we want to do that will make the other one happy.
Holding the door? Whoever gets to the door first holds it. A lot of times that person is me.
Engagement ring? Our engagement was financially mutual. I picked out my engagement ring, not because it was specifically an engagement ring, but because I saw it, and i liked it. When we got engaged, I gave my husband my grandfather’s GOLD Cigarette case, since it was something from my family, and would be useful to him, since nobody in our family smokes anymore. It was more of an equal trade, than a “he buys for her, she receives” kind of deal.
Our wedding bands came from my family, and belonged to my grandparents.
As for who goes first on a lifeboat, we’re all humans. Get enough life boats for everyone on board, and you won’t have to choose.
Do you have any more old male-dominated stereotypes you’d like me to disprove?
Well if it becomes that easy to just drop a name once it becomes too long That why not cut all that out to begin with. Don’t get me wrong I understand what your saying that why should the woman change her name and not the man , and why it is a tradition . In Spain woman take on her husbands name in addition to hers but the children use the father’s surname, that’s how they keep the family name going from generation to generation . It’s not man’s fault they’ve become the slightly dominant figure it’s mother natures . Lion is king of the jungle not the squirrel . Like the Kramden’s ,Ralph alway swore he was the king of the castle but we all knew who was the real boss of the house . Woman are not owned there the glue that holds a family together . Happy wife , happy life . Happy man ,happy land , and this isn’t an argument for people who aren’t married because they just don’t get it , and Leah I’m not putting you on the spot but your husband was married before am I correct ? And has a few children to carry his name , also did his first wife change her name ? I know from my standpoint that if me andy wife after a few kids don’t work out , and I decide to remarry I really wouldn’t mind if my second wife had my name or not, reason 1) I have children already with my name and went the traditional way the first time , 2) if my first wife had my name for a few years and since every divorce is irritating , I bet I’d be a little sick of hearing and seeing Mrs. So and so , and a change is what I really need. All in all it’s a tradition and a belief and my point of view might change one day . When it becomes “Men and Children first ! ” or woman start buying flowers for man or start holding doors more frequently or a woman goes out to buy an engagement ring and they get on one knee and ask you to marry them or the man walks down the aisle and the woman is waiting there . If we’re change one tradition let’s change all.
Confused wrote: “now we have Mary Jones-Smith . She gets older and meets a man … and his name is Tom Granderson – Elroy now they get married and there names are everything to them so they become the Jones – Smith-Granderson-Elroy family , beautiful thing.”
This argument really is a straw man. Perhaps if both parents were completely wedded to their double-barrelled surnames, you would get a rather unwieldy result, but that would be rare indeed. Anyone with any sense would simply pass on ONE of their surnames to their child, resulting in offspring with another double-barrelled name. Problem solved.
LOL Typo. I meant “future wife.”
As for me being the 20%, it’s up to the 20% to make sure the 80% doesn’t take advantage of their strengths. Just because a man may have more physical strength doesn’t mean he should command, nor does he deserve, more respect than a woman. Just because a large number of women would not be able to do what I did when the guy broke into our house, sending her husband and step-son out of the room while she dealt with it, doesn’t mean that that will be the only answer someone will get when they’ll ask the question you asked earlier. It is because that 20% exists, that 20% of women who keep their names, and that 20% of men who don’t feel threatened by it, that the evolution of the world is possible. If not for people like us, we’d still be living in archaic society.
The freedom fighters of the feminist movement are one of the many civilian equivalents of the people who fight for freedom on a larger scale. People like us keep our country from sliding back into the dark ages. My husband fought in a war with weapons, I’m fighting a war with words.
Thanks again for your kind words. I’ll pass them onto both my husband and my step-son.
Thank you for your kind words, Confused, and I have thanked my husband and step-son quite often for what they have done, even if I’m not an American myself. What they have done for the USA, they have done for the world. Fortunately for us, his son is on a Military base away from any combat zones, so we will not have to worry about him facing a lot of the trauma that his father did.
As for the fight for freedom, it is that freedom the name-keepers want to enjoy. Our military, be they female, or male, American, Canadian, or from any other allied country, have all fought for our rights to be free. I think a lot of people who support a woman’s right to keep her name, and women like me who REFUSE to take a man’s name, feel that to change our names due to an archaic old tradition would be akin to losing our freedom to an oppressive regime. Families are political units too.
Has anyone in this thread seen the movie Fiddler On The Roof? Remember how Perchik proposed to Hodel, by saying he wanted to ask her a political question, and then explaining how marriage was political too? That’s pretty close to how it happened with Walker and I. When I told him I was going to keep my name (I did not ask him if it was alright for me to keep my name I TOLD HIM I WAS GOING TO KEEP MY NAME!!) he said “you’re damn right!! If I were to force you to change your name, I’d be no better than the corrupt leaders of oppressive regimes, who encourage free countries to go to war for the sake of the innocent!” He didn’t want to take me hostage.
To the men past, present, and future, who feel that it’s un-manly to be married to a woman who does not take her husband’s name, who REFUSES to take her husband’s name, tell me. Are you going to argue with a person in uniform who fought for American and world freedom?
My step-son is growing up to be more like his father every day, embracing his values, and respecting the people around him as individuals. Some day he’s going to make a woman very happy, and together he and his future wire are going to enjoy the same freedom as a couple, and as individuals, as my husband and I enjoy.
Leah, let me start off by thanking your husband and step son for the sacrifices they have made for this country , for I wouldnt even be able to make an arguement if it werent for the people who have served in the years prior , fighting for our freedom and our saftey. With that being said i would like to bring up the 80 – 20 rule which is when something happens 80 percent of the time thats pretty much what it is so when someone says ” your always so mean ! ” pretty much your mean 80 percent of the time not all ,there are times when your not mean but if your mean 80 percent of the time that pretty much sums you up as a mean person. With what you did and what happen to you your pretty much in the 20 percent part. Most women wouldnt do that ,not particulary out of fear but some woman arent big and strong and there husband would be able to put up a better fight ( if need be ) . Now Im not a woman basher far from it , my boss is a woman , I work for the city , I do street construction we have crews where we are only allowed to have one woman on , ONE . The reason being is we use some heavy duty machinery and though we have tried to get woman to learn to use tools like the jackhammer they just cant there bodies are not capable. Weve actually had some cry when they know they cant do certain things or if they feel forced and dont want to. The woman on my crew whenever there is something heavy to do or if we need to take out an FF truck , which is just a gigantic truck she calls me and we have a great working relationship , we joke all the time about this . Men have testostorne so its fair to say that 80 percent of the time men are bigger and stronger by nature , which is how men became the slighty more dominant figure . Not dominant as in I own you just dominant as in years ago before there were cops and other law enforcment when we were running rampant in the woods the men would defend there familys to death. This isnt a history lesson and this is not bashing woman, this is last names were talking about for crying out loud . Brain wise were the same, body wise we are different by nature men hunt and women nest . Woman work very hard in todays society , using there brains , heck my wife has a better job then i do. I understand there are people standing up for the womans last name and make an arguement saying we should hyphen , fine lets say we hyphen right now in the USA its 80 – 20 my way , but lets say things change and 80 percent of the people getting married begin to hyphen ther last names , now take a couple Bob Smith and Nancy Jones now they get married and there the Jones – Smith family and a daughter pops out 9 monthes later and now we have Mary Jones-Smith . She gets older and meets a man whos parents also were into the hyphening phenomenon and his name is Tom Granderson – Elroy now they get married and there names are everything to them so they become the Jones – Smith-Granderson-Elroy family , beautiful thing. Now i know you dont want me to keeps going with how this ends up if the have a daughter and she meets a man later in life and he has a fews names that he doesnt want to let go either. ;) . Anyhow Im just trying to say 80 percent of the men court a woman take her out on dates most of the time men pay , ( not all please dont comment if youve paid for dinner once or twice ) most of the time men are the aggressive one in when they want a woman . Especially when they go out and decide when its time to get a ring get on one knee and say would you like to start a family with me . Or do we want to change that too ?
Confused; I am as baffled by your line of argument as you must be by mine. Clearly, we are approaching this topic from a completely different ‘truth’ and we will only continue to circle each other in mutual misunderstanding if I try to explain myself any more.
But, I will try one final shot; which is to point you to something I wrote on this topic which might explain the grounds on which I make my statements.
http://keepyoursurname.livejournal.com/
As I say in the article, if you do not share my premise, then my conclusions will probably just irritate you, but at least you’ll better understand them.
Confused wrote: <>
Ummm… She does when her husband has PTSD from combat, and would probably kill the guy, if he got his hand on him, and the step-son lived a rather protected life with his mother for many years, and has never been anywhere near a break-in.
I was in just such a situation a few years ago, and I sent my husband and step-son into the back of the house while I handled it! I was mad at the bugger for breaking into our house, but I didn’t have combat urges, so I didn’t have to worry about taking the law into my own hands. I dealt with the intruder, got the police there fast enough, and no harm came to the husband or step-son.
There was a man breaking in, a man with the urge to take the law into his own hands, a young man who had little experience with the world, and ME. Even the police officers that showed up were women. I’ve no problems with men, but on that particular night, in that particular situation, men served no useful role.
Let’s just say that people are going to do what people are going to do, regardless of their gender. Gender should not dictate a person’s life.
For the record my step-son grew up to join the Marines, and now trumps me when it comes to certain life experiences. People do change over the years. Four years ago, however, he was not equipped to handle the situation.
A little off the topic of name changes I know, but I could not let this blatant stereotype slide.
I was referring to the one child family law policy in China. You can look it up if you want because it is still in place. Yes a wife would give up her life for her husband , hypothetically speaking let’s say an intruder was breaking in the house the wife is not going to tell her husband ..” sweetheart hide in the bathroom with the kids I got this” or an unruly neighbor who likes to scream at woman , it is the right thing for the man to be the man of the house. Claire your going to have rebuttals for everything I say, not saying the woman’s life means nothing and it’s only the mans name and his family, I just believe that there should be one family name and its not about owning anyone , I just see more stability that way. If the man wants to give his up and he’s okay with that then hey whatever floats your boat . Checking statistics almost 90 percent in the USA change there names after marriage so you got your work cut out for you, maybe one everyone will hyphen there name and they’ll be something else to complain about but I know how I’ll raise my daughter and I’m sure alot of other people will do the same. Cycle like I said your picking cultures that follow a complete different marriage system , some of those religions have the men having several wife’s , don’t pick and choose certain things and leave the whole story out.
Confused: although your comment has been removed, I will answer one point you made. Yes, I mentioned the fact that (at least traditionally) neither the Arabs nor the Chinese expect women to change their surnames. Also, that paragon of feminism; Iran. These are not cultures with the best record on women’s rights, yet even there the women keep their surnames. This is my point; even these die-hard misogynistic cultures do not equate women changing their surnames with “respecting” their husbands.
I’m fine with your desire to ‘honour’ a good man by taking his surname, but I’d like to think he would be equally open to ‘honouring’ you by taking yours.
Confused, You keep mentioning that a man will give up his life for his wife, are women not also willing to give up their lives for their husbands? You said, “they wouldn’t be happy if anyone tried to change what they grew up knowing” and yet that is EXACTLY what you are suggesting all women should do. I think we are getting very close to the end of this conversation.
[Ed's note: Confused, I have removed your comment because you are speaking nonsense. No one is killing babies in China, that's not how their population legislation works.]
Claire by lesbian I’m mean that now that it legal for them to marry in NY everyone is keeping there name and there happy great. Like I said it is also know that a man will give up his own life to save his wife. Other places are following there OWN traditions, they wouldn’t be happy if anyone tried to change what they grew up knowing. I guarantee most not ALL , Most of the “naysayers” here are carrying there fathers name not there mothers . You want to impress people get your mom your grandmother and your great grandmothers maiden name and attach it to yours . Then your making an impression, in Spain they have Mom’s maiden name followed by “de” then coming fathers name.. De is like saying of or kind of saying belonging to so I find that funny that you mention it.. All in all this argument is in good fun.. If everyone had the same opinion life would be boring. I believe in the woman changing her name and some of you don’t , so dont find a man or woman or whatever excites you that wants the same and run with it.
Confused: you said “It is very important to have one family name.”
Why? Sorry, I’m not being obtuse, but I really do not see why this is important. The entire Spanish speaking world does not agree, neither do the Chinese, Arabs, Persians and goodness knows who else, which probably accounts for at least 50% of the entire world’s population. OK, it may not be so common in the USA or some European countries, but ‘very important’? I just don’t see why.
Confused, It sounds to me like you feel that a man “purchases” the right to name his wife when he gives her an engagement ring. You mentioned men who spend way more than they can afford on a diamond engagement ring. Yes, some men do that. But why do they do it? Do they fear that she will say no if the ring is “to small”? Is it because their friends are going to compare and he believes that size matters? Does he do it to prove to the world that he has resources? The trend of bigger and bigger diamonds is a fairly modern one. Look at your mother’s ring, your grandmother’s ring. Chances are good that unless you’re a Rockefeller neither of them has carried a full carat diamond on their hand for the last 30 years. But in the last 10 years or so there has been a MASSIVE marketing campaign to try and convince consumers that the size of the diamond you buy is indicative of the depth of your love. It’s nonsense of course, but a lot of people go for it.
In reading your comment you seem to believe that it is a man’s right to expect his wife to give up her name. You talk of “making sacrifices for each other” but then seem to say that the price of having a family is giving up your name. I wonder if you would feel the same way if someone was telling you to simply hand over your identity?
I think that taking someone’s name can be a very beautiful thing, but never if it is forced. It has to be a choice the two people make TOGETHER, not a condition of a ring, or a demand from one to the other. A real man shares, he listens and discusses rather than handing down decrees. Everyone keeps saying “but it’s so important to have a family name” yet if any of them actually believed that they would be willing to be the ones to change. They don’t believe “a family name is important” they believe “MY name is important”. It always worries me when I see men who are completely unwilling to bend this issue. What other areas are they going to dismiss their wives in?
I am utterly confused by your comment that “All the naysayers are either lesbian or way too into themselves.” What lesbian on the planet would get married to a man? How could this possibly be an issue for them? Perhaps you are confused about the difference between a lesbian and a feminist, but if you are, that’s a conversation to have with your Dad. Nuff said.
It is very important to have one family name.. It’s a tradition yes like how if it came down to life or death a man would give his life to save his wife.. All the naysayers are either lesbian or way too into themselves.. Most men spend alot more than they can afford on a big giant diamond for there woman.. The real marriages have both who make sacrifices for each other , that’s how a relationship works. I will teach this to my daughter when she gets older. When you meet a man , a real man one who treats you right and makes sacrifices to build a family with you, you take his name. Nuff said
Michael: “grow up and stop trying to prove how “independent” they are.”
I’m puzzled by your logic. Using your own argument, are not men who insist on keeping their own name equally guilty of the ‘crime’ you accuse women?
Your relationship to me sounds one-sided. She is willing to compromise, but you are not. Marriage is about you and her together – a team. If you want unity so much, have you considered taking her name? You could always make a hybrid out of your names or even create a new name, then that way your names could be passed down to any children you have. (I’ve always felt children should get both parents’ names, as they do in Spain, as it honors both parents). This is the 21st century after all, where times/traditions are changing.
Women should not have to change their names to their husband’s name, as most of them do. It is unacceptable and a complete slap in the face to a woman when a man strips her of her name. Men who insist women change their name need to grow up and stop trying to prove how “macho” they are. Those type of men are a joke and have no place in our society.
Women should change their names to their husband’s name, as most of them do. It is unacceptable and a complete slap in the face to a man when you refuse his name. Women who don’t change their name need to grow up and stop trying to prove how “independent” they are. Those type of women are a joke and have no place in our society.
So I know I am bit late here, but I did not change my name when I married 4 years ago. My reason was this: I don’t belong to anyone. The purpose of taking a last name was -originally- to signify ownership. Perhaps you could change your last name.
I still stay the same in my response.
Well said, Claire. I was aiming my response mainly at the men who can not take it when women keep their own names, and the women who blindly submit, without thinking about it For those who make their own choices, you are absolutely right. They have the choice. I was also aiming this at the complaining family members who badger the couple, who decide to go the non-traditional route.
I know a number of women who have changed their names the traditional way, and while I did not agree with the tradition itself, I understand why they did it. When a woman changes her name, I may ask her why she decided to follow tradition, simply to gain a different perspective, not to try and change her mind. After all, it’s her name.
In my situation, I took my mother’s maiden name because it’s Danish, and because it was against the old tradition to do so. I was lucky to “feed two birds with one crumb” so to speak. Now, if I was my Uncle’s daughter, living in Quebec, speaking French, I’d have been born a Christensen. I would have been conflicted because I would have loved having a Danish name in a French province, but it still would have been a name I got the traditional way. In that case, I may have gone back through his maternal line, and become Leah Jensen. That way I’d have a side of the family that did not reflect the heritage in which I was already immersed, but I would not have a name gained by an old patriarchial tradition either. Fortunately for me, I was born in Ontario Canada, and gained the Danish name through my mother’s line.
Leah, I think that whether a woman takes the new name or her old name is taken from her is a matter of perspective. In North America a name change is not a legal requirement of marriage. You do not have to change your name. There may be family pressure, or societal pressure depending on where you live but there is no law here at least that says “if you want to be a married woman you must renounce your name”. Many women choose to change their names on their wedding day. Yes, in times past I think that women had a lot less say – but that applies to just about everything. It wasn’t so long ago that a woman could not vote, or own property or even take out a credit card without her husband’s consent.
There are many couples who do exactly what you suggest and both take a new name on the day they marry. My younger brother and his wife did exactly that. They didn’t like the idea that one had to change identity and the other did not. As my brother pointed out, both of them changed their status they day they got married. Both agreed to start doing some things and stop doing other things because they were married now. They wanted a new name that reflected that reality. I don’t know if women still get forced into changing their names. I would be wary of marrying a man who insisted on a name change but was unwilling to make that change himself. It sets a very uncomfortable precedent.
Why is it the woman who loses her name? When she gets married she does not take the man’s name, rather he takes her name AWAY FROM HER, stripping her of a name. What would happen if women stripped men of their names in this fashion? Would they still be as taken with this tradition if they were the ones with their names being taken away from them?
And if it’s all about creating a family identity, then both should renounce their family names in favour of a new name they’ve created together, of elements of the old names, or a totally new name with nothing to do with their old names, that they have created equally.
I believe a name is very important to a couple and the family. You extend the name down to the next generations. The only one who dose not is the woman with ner maiden name. Now my Mom was different, as she was born with the same last name and was married to her husband with the same name. I have always thought that was neat. I believe though that one should carry the name the husband has, as that name will carry on down the line except for the girl, in which she will gat her new name when she marries.
If she really doesn’t want to change her name and you love her then you need to respect that. If having the same name is important to you because of “unity” then you should consider changing your name to your wife’s name. If you won’t do it then consider why? Those reasons are probably some the same ones your fiancee is having. A name is part of your identity, your history and your family. That can be really hard to change. There’s also the whole issue of changing your name because women were considered traditionally considered property which is (understandably) distasteful for some women. It’s also important to consider that name change upon marriage is NOT natural, it is a social construct and in a lot of cultures ( For example: Belgium, China, Cambodia, Burma, French Canada, Iceland, Korea, most Muslim-Arab countries, Portuguese and Spanish speaking countries etc.) retaining your birth name is traditional.
If neither of you wants to change your name to the other person’s maybe you can combine your names to come up with a new one to symbolize your unity as a new family (eg. if your last name is Johnson and hers is Parker your last name could be Parkson)
Is this an issue that you find yourself in Carley?
I can sum this article up in two words and I’ll even hyphenate; double-standard
Leo, I would have to contest that this patriarchal norm demeans women. Granted there are men that have used the norm to demean women, but I know there are many women who have felt anything but demeaned by taking the name of their husband. You can take just about any norm and use it to demean another person, but that does not detract from the value of the norm.
You are right though: couples have to find the name that they feel best suits their family. As with most things that start conflicts in marriages, the value of this is that it creates opportunities to communicate (which helps couples know each other better) and to selflessly honour our mate. I think the Bible puts it well, “Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged. It is never glad about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.” (1Corithians 13:4-7)
Your girlfriend is perfectly entitled to not only keep her name but pass it on to her children – as a mother she gives a lot more to the process of creating a new human being than any father and let’s not forget maternity is the only certainty. I would urge her not to give in to you and the patriarchal norms that have demeaned women for so long. Why don’t you change your name to hers if “unity” is so important. As to the hyphenating names and passing on to kids point – easily sorted, they pass on whatever name they please or the girl passes on her mother’s name and the boy his father’s or vice versa.
Names! To me is not important as the relationship. Let your lives grwo and when time is ready then change the name. I know it is not easey to live with this, but just be patient and it will come in His timeing.
If the issue is unity, take her last name, hyphenate, or make up a new last name. If the issue is that you want to follow tradition by requiring that she take your last name, please realize that you are no longer building an equal partnership. In fact, you are subjecting her to being paid less and respected less, as studies have shown that women who keep their own names make more money. You certainly don’t seem to want to change your last name- maybe she’s as attached to her name and identity as you are to yours.
Great response Nick!!! Well said! and I would have to agree with you that ultimatums really isn’t a good way to start off your married life!
Thanks for sharing your experience with this issue Nick. Often times verbalizing our feelings and not getting defensive can open up a whole new understanding. It sounds like if it weren’t for other people asking the question, the issue would almost be non-existent. I agree, life is too short.
sorry, typo
“should take preference over” should be “should take precedence over”