Does God Exist? Proof & Evidence for the Existence of God

Written by Marilyn Adamson

Just once wouldn’t you love for someone to simply show you the evidence for God’s existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of, “You just have to believe.”

Well, here is an attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons which suggest that God exists.

But first consider this. If a person opposes even the possibility of there being a God, then any evidence can be rationalized or explained away.

It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking. Satellite footage of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the astronauts, moon rocks…all the evidence would be worthless, because the person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.

When it comes to the possibility of God’s existence, the Bible says that there are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the truth about God.(1)

On the other hand, for those who want to know God if He is there, He says, “You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all your heart, I will be found by you.”(2) Before you look at the facts surrounding God’s existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know Him?

Here, then, are some reasons supporting God’s existence...

1. Throughout history, in all cultures of the world, people have been convinced there is a God.

Could one say with any sense of confidence that all those people have been mistaken? Billions of people, who represent diverse sociological, intellectual, emotional, educational makeups…all came to the same conclusion that there is a Creator, a God to be worshipped.

“Anthropological research has indicated that among the farthest and most remote primitive people today, there is a universal belief in God. And in the earliest histories and legends of people all around the world, the original concept was of one God, who was the Creator. An original high God seems once to have been in their consciousness even in those societies which are today polytheistic.”(3)

2. The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today. Many examples showing God’s design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

  • The Earth…its size is perfect. The Earth’s size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth’s surface.If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.(4) Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up.Even a fractional variance in the Earth’s position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet it restrains our massive oceans from spilling over across the continents.(5)
  • Water…colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You’ll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life…It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.Water is a universal solvent. Take a full glass of water, add a cup of sugar, and nothing spills over the edge; the water simply absorbs the sugar. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.(6)Water is also chemically inert. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.
    Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

    Ninety-seven percent of the Earth’s water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.(7)

  • The human brain…simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information.Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the way this article appears to you on your screen.Your brain registers emotional responses, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.(8) Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world.A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information…can we say mere chance brought about such an astounding organ?

    When NASA launches a shuttle mission, it is assumed a monkey didn’t write the plan, but intelligent and knowledgeable minds. How does one explain the existence of the human brain? Only a mind more intelligent and knowledgeable than humanity could have created the human brain.

3. Mere “chance” is not an adequate explanation.

Imagine looking at Mount Rushmore, in which the likenesses of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt are carved. Could you ever believe that it came about by chance?

Given infinite time, wind, rain and chance, it is still hard to believe something like that, tied to history, was randomly formed in the side of a mountain. Common sense tells us that people planned and skillfully carved those figures.

This article only touches on a few amazing aspects of our world: the Earth’s position to the sun, some properties of water, one organ in the human body. Could any of these have come about by chance?

The distinguished astronomer Sir Frederick Hoyle showed how amino acids randomly coming together in a human cell is mathematically absurd. Sir Hoyle illustrated the weakness of “chance” with the following analogy. “What are the chances that a tornado might blow through a junkyard containing all the parts of a 747, accidentally assemble them into a plane, and leave it ready for take-off? The possibilities are so small as to be negligible even if a tornado were to blow through enough junkyards to fill the whole universe!”(9)

When one considers the intricacies of our life and universe, it is reasonable to think that an intelligent, loving Creator provided for everything we need for life. The Bible describes God as the author and sustainer of life.

4. Humankind’s inherent sense of right and wrong cannot be biologically explained. There arises in all of us, of any culture, universal feelings of right and wrong. Even a thief gets upset and feels wronged when someone steals from him. If someone violently grabs a child from a family and rapes that child, there is an anger and revulsion and a rage to confront that act as evil, regardless of the culture. Where did we get this sense of wrongness? How do we explain a universal law in the conscience of all people that says murder for fun is wrong?

And in areas like courage, dying for a cause, love, dignity, duty and compassion, where did these come from? If people are merely products of physical evolution, “survival of the fittest,” why do we sacrifice for each other? Where did we get this inner sense of right and wrong? Our conscience can best be explained by a loving Creator who cares about the decisions and harmony of humanity.

Next: God left a biography about himself as evidence for his existence

Copyright 2000 Used with permission.

259 Responses to “Does God Exist? Proof & Evidence for the Existence of God”

  • Richard says:

    Hey Tim,
    Are you drunk or an idiot? Hopefully you’re drunk because then at least you can sober up!
    You obviously don’t understand evolution, as none of your criticisms make sense.
    “If you choose not to see, even god can’t help you.” Of course he can’t, he doesn’t exist. If there was an all seeing, all powerful god who wanted us to know of his existence, then he could easily do it; not make a brief appearance two thousand years ago, do a few magic tricks then disappear.
    Yes, humans are animals. Highly evolved animals, but animals none the less. Get over it.
    I (and many people I know) have zero spirituality, but I have plenty of purpose in my life. So you’re wrong again there. Each of us has to find our own purpose. You for instance have decided to absolve any responsibility for your life to an imaginary man in the sky. Seems a bit silly but that’s your choice.
    You want to know why we don’t just all kill each other and get it over with? Because we, just like all animals have evolved an instinct to survive. Why don’t you believers all kill each other so you can go to heaven?
    Talking about picking and choosing, have you read the bible lately? Unless you’re keeping slaves, stoning people for working on Sundays, murdering, raping and any number of other horrors both the old and new testaments recommend, then you’re doing an awful lot of picking and choosing.
    You say there is positive and negative in everything therefore… um… there is a god. Great theory Tim. Champion!

  • Tim says:

    Oh yes I know………what about the Crusades….the Spanish Inquisitions.
    Evil people thinking they were fullfilling Gods works…….but were NOT!
    Just because you are Earnest? Doesn’t mean you are going to heaven…….

  • Tim says:

    You non-believers, still don’t get it do you? You look at every positive and negative charged particle in this Place? And still………Can’t see?
    That the Universe you are in has, a Positive and a Negative. EVERYTHING!
    Night……Day Slow………Fast………Alive………Dead!
    Every molecule in your body is Positive and negative, charged. There’s your duality. Good………….Evil.
    But like the man said………If you choose not to see…..Not even God can help you. BUT? I suppose everyone is entitled to wallow in their own Slime if they want too. BUT? I didn’t come from some pond scum. My COMMON sense tells me so.
    But you can only find your purpose if you have some spirituality. And believe there is a greater purpose to all this we call life…….Otherwise? Why even TRY? Let’s Just kill each other off, and get it over with.
    Because that’s the promise and hope of of Darwinism………Genocide.

  • Tim says:

    Oh yeah/ And No fish either……..Because they would of evolved into chickens……….OHHHHH BOY! This is what college produces now a days?

  • Tim says:

    And I’ll tell you something else………the reason society has Serial killers? Is because of the teachings of Darwinism/Evolution.
    DENY it all you whilst. But it’s a Fact.

  • Tim says:

    OH? And…………you don’t get to pick and choose how your theory works and with what animal. Either your theory is universal or it is …..NOT!
    Darwinism? Is childs play……Nothing but the real fantasy, for people who feel their is no one they are responsible too, for their actions in this Universe, or Life. Evolution allows people…… act like animals. Because that’s what they want to be. Not conscience , emotional beings…….BUT ANIMALS!

  • Tim says:

    Evolution? Is a hoax on science…….Darwins grand illusion, that made him famous. Energy? The Universe wastes NONE! It just changes. Every thing is energy. Evolutions own theory is an oxymoron. because Evolution degenerates from it’s own theory. If man evolved from monkeys/Apes, because monkeys or Apes biology needed to change to adapt to the environment to become better? then? there would be NONE! Period, because all of them would of transgressed into the same supposed evolution. Man? Has ALWAYS been here…………..DUH!

  • JHW says:

    PG: Oh that old egg!
    Hey theists and deists I have an answer and an explaination.
    The Egg came first – The creature that laid it was not a chicken.

    On a lighter note for you christians.

    Q>How many surealists does it take to change a lightbulb

  • PG says:

    Hey Atheists and Scientists – I have a question: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    That’s right Richard, no loss of energy but it is always moving towards an inert uniformity that is unusable unless some new force from outside of the closed system is exerted on it to restore order. Whatever words you would like to use is fine as long as we agree that there is no such thing as perpetual motion, including the universe. The universe is not infinite and therefore something outside of the natural order has brought it into being.

    Is saying God created the universe a cop-out? I don’t think so. It is where the logic leads us. To ignore the possibility of God seems to be putting one’s head in the proverbial sand and ignoring the most obvious option to the question. Once we accept that there must have been something outside of the natural order which brought all this into existence we can then begin the exploration of what that ‘something’ was based on the evidence left in what has been created. As I mentioned before, all art, building, and creations tell something of the one who made it. If we want to know what kind of something brought all this (including us) into existence then we can study what was made to get some clues.

    It is interesting that you bring up the idea of infection. Louis Pasteur, the man who did such ground-breaking work in the area of bacteria and developed the first penicillin to fight off infections, said, “The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator.” (Semaine religieuse …. du diocèse de Versailles (6 October 1895), p. 153) It would seem that his faith in God motivated his study of science and his desire to stop people dying of infected cuts.

    It is true that many people have died for their beliefs but when I refer to the disciples of Jesus, they were the people who were eyewitnesses to the life of Jesus and wrote the documents that have become the New Testament in the Bible and would have known if what they were preaching was a lie or not. They were the ones who were tortured and killed in order to get them to recant their belief in Jesus as God. If they were preaching a lie that they had manufactured or had recycled from stories that they had heard about someone else, why would they have given their lives to protect that lie? It doesn’t make sense.

    What you call ‘evolutionary evidence’ I see as proof of adaptation which God has programed into the DNA of creatures. There is plenty of evidence of creatures adapting to their environment in order to better survive changing conditions but that doesn’t mean that they have become a different species. The Galapagos Finches are a great example of what Darwin saw as evolution in progress but really was just an adaptation to changing conditions. Darwin’s study on the Galapagos revealed that there were finches with surprisingly different shaped beaks. Darwin hypothesized that these had evolved into different species. On-going study of those finches shows that it is a regular adaptation these birds go through over generations because of changing weather patterns on the island and the availability of different food sources. But no new species has developed through this process of adaptation. The examples you cite are equally evidence of adaptation that has had not created a new species but is only an adaptation due to environmental conditions.

  • Richard says:

    Surely energy dissipates rather than deteriorates?
    If the universe is a closed system as you say, then the energy would never run out.
    God is an abstract construct invented to “answer” what may never be answerable. Just because a question (like how did the universe start?) is mind boggling, simply saying “God did it” doesn’t add anything to the equation. It’s like saying “I don’t know and I don’t want to think about it.” It’s a cop out.
    As I’ve said before, if we’d been content to say “it’s God’s will” every time we had a difficult question we’d still be dying of infected cuts.
    People may have died in Jesus’ name. People continue to die in the name of Allah. Are you considering converting to Islam? The Koran is no less believable than your Bible.
    I agree when you say people being tortured and dying rather than recant their faith doesn’t make sense if their faith isn’t true. People strapping bombs to themselves and dying and killing others in the name of their faith doesn’t make sense either. But by your logic it must be true. Again, believing something really, really strongly doesn’t make it true. Sorry.
    Contrary to what you say, the Christian writings have many precedents and are pretty much a rehash of older stories. The virgin birth, guiding star, born in a stable, the 3 wise men etc, all been done before.
    Do you wish to comment on evolutionary evidence like redundant eyes (mentioned before) and remnant legs in reptiles and the like?

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    You are right Richard, the First Law of Thermodynamics shows us that a closed system never loses nor gains energy but the Second Law tells us that over time the available energy that can be used decreases. That’s why I stated that the energy deteriorates rather than is lost. The universe is not a perpetual motion machine that can go on for eternity expanding and collapsing. The amount of usable energy would decrease over time and eventually run out. It doesn’t make it any more viable to suggest the existence of multiple universes; you are still faced with the fact that an infinite universe or multiverse contradicts the Law of Entropy. That is the reality of our natural universe.

    God, however, is outside of that natural universe and is not bound by the limitations of time. I know that boggles out mind but it is the only logical explanation for the existence of this universe. In order for there to be a natural universe there must exist some supernatural force or being that was able to set the natural world into motion. It is not contradictory but it is absolutely logically necessary.

    You are right that the clearest record we have for the life of Jesus is the Bible and that’s why it is such an important collection of documents, but it is not the only reliable record of the existence of Jesus and proof of the claims made in the Bible about important aspects of His life. First Century historians record information about the impact that Jesus had on the people and corroborate the eyewitness accounts of His miraculous acts, His death and resurrection. Roman government officials wrote letters that discussed His life and the impact He had on the lives of their citizens years after He had returned to Heaven. Jewish Talmudic writings, seeking to discredit Him, only affirm His existence and the claims He made of being divine. Those documents all confirm the things said about Him by eyewitnesses in the biblical documents that were written less than fifty years after His return to Heaven. The chronological proximity of those documents precludes the possibility of lies and deception and is unprecedented in all writings about the lives of religious figures. You add to that the willingness of the authors of the biblical documents who almost all gave their lives in defense of their claims about Jesus. I can understand someone telling lies about something if it gave them power, wealth and fame but when it brought them to painful deaths, often through torture so that they would recant what they had said about Jesus…well that just doesn’t make sense to me. And they all suffered greatly but not one of them broke ranks and said it was a lie. I suppose a person could dismiss it as a group delusion but the evidence of their lives does not bear the characteristics of that at all. There is no doubt that they believed that Jesus was God come to Earth to reveal Himself to the ones He had created and to sacrifice Himself out of His love for us all in order to make relationship with Him possible.

    As to why God chose that time and that place, I don’t claim to know the reason behind God’s perfect plans but I do know that it was a time that allowed for an astounding spread of a life changing message. The Romans had extended their Empire far beyond any previously established. Most historians would agree that this was the golden age of the Roman Empire before it began it slow descent into self-destruction. The development of the Roman roads and the Pax Romana (Roman Peace) meant that people like Paul, Peter, John, Thomas, etc were able to travel safely to all points of the Empire to proclaim the Good News of Jesus Christ. The adoption of Koine Greek by the Romans meant that they could speak the truth of Jesus in a common language that people all over the Empire would understand. And as the Roman Empire declined into all of the ugliness of Nero, Elagabalus, Caligula, etc. the hope that came through the message of Jesus made a clear juxtaposition of right and wrong which many in the Empire gravitated to and allowed Jesus to create a transformation in their life and community. No matter how much you may not like the message of Jesus there is no way that you can examine its early history and see that the followers of Jesus were making a positive impact on the society at large.

    I don’t know that China at that time would have been any better of a choice. Perhaps they were more advanced but they did not have the same impact globally as the Roman Empire and the subsequent nations that developed in the Western world. One of the keys that Israel has always played in world history is its connection to both the West and the East. Our western-centric view of history has often missed the Christian impact that came from Thomas, Bartholomew, Matthias, Andrew, Simon (not Peter), and Matthew who traveled throughout the Middle East, Africa, Asia, as far away as the Black Sea and India. So why did God choose that time and that place? I don’t know exactly but seeing the exponential growth of the church in the first 200 years I think it was the right choice.

    I know you think that God should be able to make it impossible not to believe, but the truth is people don’t want to believe in God because they don’t want to surrender to His authority in their life. I would assume that even if Jesus would have come into our time and did the same miraculous things that He did in the First Century there would still be people who would refuse to believe Him just like there was back then. That’s why He responded to the request for ‘signs’ that He was who He said He was with, “The only sign I will give them is the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for three days and three nights, so I, the Son of Man, will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.” (Matthew 12:39-40)

    So today you are presented with the sign of Jonah, that Jesus died and was buried but on the third day He rose to life. That sign is lived out in the lives of His followers every day as they allow their rebellious nature to die with Jesus and to be raised to a new life that is fully committed to Him alone. They have the hope that one day they will be welcomed into the presence of God for all eternity and enjoy the wonder of the purpose of their creation, to be in relationship with the Almighty God and testify to His power and love that conquers all.

    Or, choose not to accept His love and instead choose to be separated from Him forever and be eternally separated from the purpose for which you were created. But I implore you, don’t make that choice. It is not want God wants for you and He has gone to extreme lengths to set you free from that destiny. Why not start with a small step of faith? Ask God to show Himself to you and then read the stories of Jesus looking to hear from God. As Paul said to the people of Athens, “God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.” God is waiting for you to be open to His voice in your life. If you are willing to hear Him I guarantee He is speaking to you.

  • Richard says:

    You still don’t understand evolution and continue to use your mistaken understanding as facts.
    Evolution does very adequately explain the diversity of life on Earth. Nothing you have said contradicts evolution. You have simply got your facts wrong. Unfortunately, Callum doesn’t seem to understand it either.
    Yes, evolution relies on random mutations from generation to generation. Those mutations that give an advantage for survival will be passed on to the next generation (quite simply because the individual is more likely to survive to pass on the gene). Any detrimental mutation, for example blindness, will naturally be detrimental to survival and less likely to be passed on. If this has taken millions of years then it’s taken millions of years. You wishing it hadn’t doesn’t mean anything.
    Have you never seen documentaries about deep sea creatures that don’t have seeing eyes? They still have the ancient remains of eyes which no longer work, but as there is no light there is no survival advantage in seeing. This is explained beautifully by evolution and really badly by God: “I changed my mind about having eyes on these creatures, but I was too lazy to remove the evidence that their ancestors once had eyes”.
    There are many theories about the beginning of the universe. Some say it has always existed, in a continuous cycle of collapse and big bang, some that there is an infinite number of parallel universes, some that it came from nothing. Adding God to the equation adds nothing. You can’t say nothing comes from nothing, and in the same breath claim that God made everything. You are therefore saying that God came from nothing and contradicting yourself. No doubt you’ll say that God has always existed. But that is no different from saying the universe has always existed. There is no advantage in adding the extra complication of a God.
    You say: “energy is always deteriorating”. Really? What happened to the law of conservation of energy?
    You said: “Jesus claimed to be God and if He is God then His existence would be proof that there is a God, right?” This is absolute gibberish! If I claimed to be God and I was God then my existence would be proof of God right? But if I claimed to be God and I wasn’t God, that would equally be proof that there is no God… right?
    There is no reliable documentation of Jesus’s life outside the bible.
    Do you ever wonder why Jesus revealed himself when he did? For thousands of years humanity was left to its own devices. Then all of a sudden Jesus appears, claims to be God, does a few tricks and is never seen again. Why was he so happy to be seen then, but now we must rely on faith? Why does he keep himself so hidden now, when once he was happy to perform miracles and give lectures to the masses? Most likely because the story is not true. Surely if God was so smart he would have turned up in China – a much more advanced culture at the time.
    But of course we mustn’t ask questions must we. We must have faith.

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    Well Callum, let me start with our universe: our understanding of natural laws let us know that we do not live in an infinite universe. That means that all of the energy and thus matter must have a beginning. Therefore, at one point there was nothing. It doesn’t matter how infinitely small one hypothesizes about an original singularity you cannot escape from the fact that at one point nothing existed. Energy and matter do not exist in our natural universe infinitely because they always are deteriorating. That means that someone or something exists outside of our natural laws to initiate nothing into something. If that something or someone exists outside of our natural universe there is going to be some aspects of that being that we will not be able to observe or prove. But the very fact that now there is something where before there was nothing concretely establishes that something beyond what we can understand created.

    Now just like any creation of art, engineering, offspring, etc. the thing that is created can give us insight into the one who has created. So as we study Creation we can get an understanding of the being who brought it into being. We know that He is far more powerful than we could imagine because to take nothing and make all that we see around us is a mind-boggling feat. We also see the extreme precision to the way that the universe functions and understand that the Creator has an intellect that we could never match. We also see great order in Creation and can hypothesize that the One who made all this is methodical, careful and detailed. But in that order we also see great beauty and spontaneity and extravagance extraordinaire. So we know that the Creator is imaginative and loves to go over the top when creating. Now I could go on talking about how the universe reflects the character of the One who made it, but you get the idea of what I am saying.

    Another proof of God is Jesus Christ. Now I know you said I couldn’t use the Bible to prove the existence of God and I won’t but Jesus claimed to be God and if He is God then His existence would be proof that there is a God, right? We could then say that God exists because He came and showed Himself to humanity. That’s what Bertrand Russell was saying when he was famously asked what he would say if he died and came face to face with God and he responded that he would ask God, “Sir, why did you take such great pains to hide Yourself?” If Jesus is God then He did not hide Himself but came to Earth and revealed Himself very clearly.

    So we know that a man lived in the province of Palestine in the first century and that He was known to be a miracle worker, that He was crucified, that His followers claimed He was resurrected from the dead, and that He was worshipped as a God by His followers. That is all information that we have through sources outside of the Bible, many of which are hostile to Christianity and therefore can be trusted that they are not exaggerations of followers of Jesus. The most hostile to Jesus at the time of His main ministry and in the years directly following were the Jewish leaders. They were the ones who sought for Jesus’ death by crucifixion and they were the ones perfectly situated and motivated to prove that Jesus’ was not God. All they had to do was produce the dead body of Jesus and the newly formed group of followers would no longer have that claim. Jesus had told everyone that He would indeed rise from the dead and the Jewish leaders took steps to guard His tomb so that His body could not be stolen. And yet, as the Christian Church grew and turned Jerusalem on its head and many of the early Christians were imprisoned and killed for their faith in Jesus, never did the Jewish leaders ever pull out the body of Jesus and say, “He was a fake!” They never did that because there was no body to produce. Jesus had indeed been resurrected and then ascended back to His rightful place in heaven.

    So there is some evidence for you Callum: first, there must have been something outside of the natural order that took nothing and made something. Second, God has come to us as Jesus Christ so that we could know Him personally. These are proofs of the existence of God that are not dependent on the Bible but certainly the Bible gives more information about, but they are not dependent on the Bible for their validity.

  • Callum says:

    …I don’t know what’s more pathetic – your complete lack of understanding for evolution e.g. Calling it genetic mutations. Your complete contradiction when talking about the bible. “The bible never says we’re the only life” no it’s not like the men that wrote the bible thought the earth was flat and the centre of the universe. It’s sad how you have to try and now change what the bible says in order to [expletive removed] some points.

    Not to mention you’re expecting full evidence for evolution when you’ve offered no evidence for God. (the bible does not count as proof for the bible)
    No one knows why you’re rambling on about microbiology like its a holy grail.

    And of course finding other life in the universe would contradict the bible – the bible thinks that we are the only life in the universe it never says otherwise (do not give me to [expletive removed] misinterpreted quote from the bible to try and prove otherwise) . Oh but wait I forgot every time science discovers something major your religion changes to compensate for it. Lets not forget what happened when the forces of nature were discovered.

    The Big Bang, evolution, Quantum mechanics…etc they all have the one fundamental thing that outranks your religion – they have evidence. You honestly expect people to keep believing that a god created an entire universe just to house life on earth so that we could bash on homosexuals?
    You’re trying to speak as though you actually know what you’re talking about when obviously you don’t. For the amount of times science has either disproved something in the bible or the bible just contradicts itself – no logical person could believe in the crap spewed from page to page in a 2000 year old book on how to hate.

    I can take refuge in the fact that most modern scientists don’t even consider your fairy tales, thankfully it’s just disregarded as we go about discovering more and more of the universe. And the large are perspective of the universe gets and the more we know about how the universe works and came into existence – the less space there is for ancient tales of a god who with a shred of common sense and education people know didn’t exist.

    And just so you know until you can provide evidence for God your argument is horrifically pointless.

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    Hi Dug, I wasn’t able to view the video you placed in the window. Is there a way that you could describe what is there and we can discuss it that way? Thanks

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    Actually Callum, there is plenty of evidence that the theory of evolution does not adequately describe the history of the creatures we see on Earth. I have pointed out a number of them but let me give you another: the theory of evolution claims that progression of creatures has come through genetic mutations. There are in this world plenty of examples of genetic mutations but they have almost never been observed to increase the information in the genetic code but have almost always been a loss which has always had a detrimental impact on the life of the carrier of the genetic mutation. Occasionally the mutation has had a beneficial component but that has always been outweighed by the detrimental. Again, in order to make the case that genetic mutations have been the source of evolutionary change millions and billions of years are introduced to suggest that given enough time the impossible, unobserved could occur. Yet all the evidence is pointing to the reality that no matter how much time is given, genetic mutation destroys life rather than improves life.

    You know Callum, you ask a good question, “if we truly were created by be the only planet with life… then why would he have bothered to create the universe with billions upon billions upon billions…etc of stars and planets?” First of all, let me say that the Bible does not claim that we are the only planet with life—there just is no reference to any organic life in our universe. Finding bacteria on Mars would have little impact on the truth of the Bible. Even other sentient beings in the universe would not undermine the message that the Bible tells.

    But back to your question, I don’t claim to know the all the reasons that God does what He does but when I look at the vastness of space that we are only beginning to explore I see the infinite creativity of God. He has no limits and so He created all the beauty of space even though it would not be until our time that His beauty could be seen. It helps us to understand how our eternal existence with Him will never be boring because we will never reach the end of His creative beauty. We will be able to explore infinity and never stop discovering a new aspect of His goodness, love, power and majesty. It is hard for my limited mind to grasp that but that is what Jesus meant when He said, “This is eternal life; that they may know You, the one true God.” Our eternity will be spent knowing more and more of the unlimited God.

    And we have the opportunity now to begin that journey of discovery by exploring the wonders of space, the beauty of microbiology and the depths of oceanography and seeing God in it all. I am loving every minute of it!

  • dug says:

    Test your faith. Read entire link. You may never believe in God again.

  • Callum says:

    This argument is becoming extremely tedious.
    The point is there, is no evidence to contradict evolution, evolution does not contradict the fundemental laws of nature at all. God on the other hand has no evidence. You don’t maintain a right to argue that the evidence for evolution is flawed (despite the fact that its not) – while promoting the idea of a God who has literally no evidence otherwise I can just say “have faith in evolution.” And I’d automatically be right.

    Fact is majority of modern scientists don’t even regard creationism because its such a waste of time, if we truly were created by be the only planet with life… then why the hell would he have bothered to create the universe with billions upon billions upon billions…etc of stars and planets.
    – Hypothetically say we find bacteria on mars tomorrow, then what will your argument be? “Umm god did it” that is pathetic and lazy. By answering – how did life start on earth? With god did it. Is a rank and shameful answer that teaches people to be ok with not understanding the world. Everyday we find more and more evidence to support evolution and every day religion becomes more irrelevant in the vastly advancing world.

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    It is true that evolution–specifically ‘biological evolution’–does refer to the changing of forms over generations but ultimately that points to the origin of life and the hypothesis that all life comes from a common ancestor. As the article you shared with me states, “Through the process of descent with modification, the common ancestor of life on Earth gave rise to the fantastic diversity that we see documented in the fossil record and around us today. Evolution means that we’re all distant cousins: humans and oak trees, hummingbirds and whales.” (

    I disagree that no laws of nature are suspended in order for evolution to work. Beyond the example that I gave of Biogenesis there is also the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics which states that any system left on its own will move towards disorder not increased order. Yet the theory of evolution suggests that simple forms of life have increased the complexity of their systems and added new genetic information. In order to make that happen the law of entropy is suspended so that rather than becoming more disorganized, the random acts of natural selection have been progressing into more organized forms of life. Even though there has never been an observed occurrence of that kind of genetic progression still the evolutionist worldview believes it can and has happened.

    You asked for some credible examples of published works that point to Intelligent Design. Let me list a few: 1) Joseph A. Kuhn, “Dissecting Darwinism,” Baylor University Medical Center Proceedings, Vol. 25(1): 41-47 (2012). In this article Dr Kuhn poses a number of challenges to both chemical and biological evolution, including: a. Limitations of the chemical origin of life data to explain the origin of DNA b. Limitations of mutation and natural selection theories to address the irreducible complexity of the cell c. Limitations of transitional species data to account for the multitude of changes involved in the transition; 2) David L. Abel, “Is Life Unique?,” Life, Vol. 2:106-134 (2012). This paper identifies that life pursues 1000s of biofunctional goals but “Neither physicodynamics, nor evolution, pursue goals.” Dr Abel’s findings are that “Only purposeful choice contingency at bona fide decision nodes can rescue from eventual deterioration the organization and function previously programmed into physicality.”; 3) Stephen C. Meyer and Paul A. Nelson, “Can the Origin of the Genetic Code Be Explained by Direct RNA Templating?,” BIO-Complexity, Vol. 2011(2) (2011). The results of this research shows the need for “an intelligently-directed” origin of the genetic code; 5) Ann K. Gauger and Douglas D. Axe, “The Evolutionary Accessibility of New Enzyme Functions: A Case Study from the Biotin Pathway,” BIO-Complexity, Vol. 2011(1) (2011). This paper reports research conducted by Biologic Institute scientists Ann Gauger and Douglas Axe on the number of minimum changes that would be required to evolve one protein into another protein with a different function. The findings support the claim of the irreducible complexity of even simple, closely related proteins.

    As I said, more and more science is pointing to the support of an Intelligent Design worldview as opposed to evolutionary worldview.

    Again, I would disagree with you that no one has found any evidence of God. I point to Jesus Christ as the prime evidence of God. The record of His life reveals a man with authority over nature that defies explanation beyond divine. His claims to divinity were backed up by many factors but most conclusively by His resurrection from the dead. I understand that you reject the evidence I have given for the historical proof of Jesus’ existence but it isn’t because of the absence of credible proof. You just choose not to accept the evidence that has been given because you don’t want to believe it. However, the witness of the Gospel writers has strong credibility because of the nearness to the actual events and the time when they were recorded. The evidence given by those writers is substantiated by the documented evidence from non-related sources that speak of the impact of the Jesus Christ on the Roman Empire in the first century not to mention the ongoing impact that He has had on the world as a whole. But because you and I have not seen Him and because if His message is true, than it has significant impact on the way you live your life, many people today choose to reject the historical evidence.

  • Richard says:

    Evolution is not “the … theory of the origin of life”.
    Either your lack of understanding of evolution is astounding or you are being deliberately disingenuous. You sound like an educated person, so unfortunately I must assume the latter.
    No laws are being suspended for evolution to work.
    The theory of evolution has nothing to do with cells coming from nothing as you seem to think. Evolution is exactly what it sounds like… evolution. One form changing over generations into another slightly different form. This is almost impossible to dispute and is easily observable in variations in modern species that have adapted to their local environment.
    Far from what you state, evolution has not been undermined and there is currently no threat (i.e. a better theory) to evolution.
    If you need a refresh on the basics you (should have) learned in primary school, you could do worse than start here:
    And here’ a list of transitional creatures in the fossil record. Since you can’t be bothered doing even basic research.
    Microbiology fits perfectly with evolution. What makes you think it doesn’t?
    Life is obviously not a “statistical impossibility” and you and I are living proof of that.
    You say “And as more science points to an intelligent designer…” Could you please give examples of credible, peer reviewed and published science to support this claim?
    “To ignore the possibility of god is not good science…” Fair enough. But good science makes observations, proposes theories about those observations and tests them.
    So far no one has found ANY evidence of ANY god so it seems quite safe to eliminate him/her/it from our enquiries. Every time you think of your god do you also consider the possibility of Ganesh, Zeus, Allah and any number of other gods? Or do you do you see them as so unlikely that it safe to eliminate them from your enquiries?

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    Richard I understand that for many years evolution has been the predominant theory of the origins of life and most people have just accepted it as fact. But the more we discover about all aspects of the science of life the more untenable that position is becoming. For example, we have the scientific law of Biogenesis–life comes from life. It is an observable, measurable and repeatable law that nobody questions. And yet in order to make evolution true we suspend that law and say that at one point in our history life came from non-life.

    Paleontology is also struggling to make the fossil record reflect an evolutionary history. The Cambrian layer of rock has a multitude of species that seemed to appear with no significant ancestry in the rock layers below them. There are creatures from every major group of animals alive today within the “Cambrian Explosion of Life”. The reality of the fossil record does not mesh with the evolution theory and force those who still cling to evolution to come up with all kinds of curious explanations for how such a diverse set of animals evolved with no link to any common ancestors.

    As I pointed out in my comment to Callum, Microbiology is also advancing to a point where our understanding of the complexity of life just cannot fit an evolutionist worldview. When Charles Darwin first postulated the idea of evolution the cell was thought to be little more than a blob of protoplasm and so it was easy to think that inanimate material could evolve into something so simple. But today as we look at the innerworkings of even a simple cell the complexity of life and the presence of vast amounts of information there is astounding. To think that all of the amino acids could come together to make the proper proteins to form the tiny components of the cell with all the genetic information that is needed for its existence and reproduction is a statistical impossibility. Yes there are those who are unwilling to let go of their belief in evolution and try to suggest that given millions or billions of years statistical impossibilities become possible but it is just a smoke screen. It just does not add up no matter how much time you give.

    And I haven’t even touched on the lack of any transitional animals in the fossil record or the lack of transitional periods in the layers of rock in geological formations, or the existence of living fossils or the mixing of fossils of supposedly different eras found in either the same rock layers or in upside down order. The more that we explore our world through science the more untenable the theory of evolution is becoming.

    Does the undermining of evolution prove the existence of a Creator God? Not necessarily but it certainly does beg the question, “Where did we come from?” The more we see an intelligent force behind the development of life the more we need to consider who that intelligent force is. I know that is an uncomfortable place for many scientists because God is outside of the natural world and we are unable to quantify Him. I know that many see it as “lazy” to use God as an explanation for things we don’t understand. But just because God exists outside of our physical realm and is not able to be observed, measured and tested like the physical realities around us does not mean He is not there. And as more science points to an intelligent designer we must be willing to go where the evidence points us. To ignore the possibility of God is not good science. In the scientific method we must not close our mind to any possibilities.

    The wonderful part is that our Intelligent Designer has not abandoned us. His fingerprints can be seen in all parts of what he has made. He has invested Himself in our history and revealed Himself in many different ways in our world. He has given us the Bible which helps us to get to know Him and understand how the world around us reveals His character. And then wonder of all wonders, He entered into our physicalness and became one of us so that we could know Him in an intimate way. He established His divine credentials by doing things that only the Creator could do. Yes, the miracles of Jesus go against the laws of nature and that is how they help us to recognize that He is God. And then He showed us the extent of His love by dying in our place so that we would no longer need to pay the penalty for our rebellion against Him–which is eternal separation from Him. He now offers that relationship to all who would accept it; we can actually know Him, be led by His direction and yes, hear His voice.

    If you want to choose to ignore the science that points to an intelligent designer and continue to search for any other explanation to “Where did we come from?” He will not force you to acknowledge Him. But when you are ready to say, “There is something more going on here than I can explain” He will be there ready to show Himself to you and to invite you into a life full of amazing discovery of the Creator God who gave His life for you because He loves you.

  • Richard says:

    “The statistical impossibility of evolution”?
    Wow, you don’t believe in evolution?! I didn’t know we were debating evolution.
    “The only reason that we are talking about billions of years…” is that it took billions of years!
    So in the face of overwhelming evidence, you don’t believe in evolution but in the complete absence of any evidence, you believe in a God.
    This is what frustrates me most about religious debate. It’s simply impossible to have a serious argument when no matter what evidence is presented, and what logic dictates is most likely true, the opposition just believes what they want.
    You believe god has a plan for you – he reveals truths to you in the bible. Some people believe their horoscope is true – unfortunately believing it doesn’t make it true.
    By the way do you believe the whole bible is true, or just the nice bits?
    “I hear Him speak to me” – many would call that schizophrenia and would seek treatment. No, I’m not being facetious. Hearing voices is a mental illness.
    Contrary to your reply to Callum, the more we know and explore the universe, the less we need to explain the unknown with god. Complexity is no evidence of magical intervention, just complexity.
    You need to quote some scientists who aren’t from eras where blasphemy could land you on the gallows (at the hands of those loving, bible following Christians).
    Even Darwin took a long time to come to terms with atheism: “Disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but at last it was complete.”
    You say “Humanity is unique in all creation because we bear the image of god.” Caterpillars are unique in all creation, is there a caterpillar god who looks like a caterpillar?
    Not sure if my debating here is pointless. All I can hope is that it will give some food for thought to those with open minds. To those starting to realise that a 2000 year old text full of contradictions and injustice and written by superstition tribe’s people several hundreds of years after the supposed events, may not be all that a reliable life guide.

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    Hi Callum, it is true that ongoing exploration will reveal new discoveries of the universe around us. The same is true about God. In fact, the more that we study our world the more that we discover about God. One of the authors in the Bible wrote, “The heavens tell of the glory of God. The skies display his marvelous craftsmanship. Day after day they continue to speak; night after night they make him known.” (Psalm 19:1-2) That is being proved out more and more today as our ability to explore our world becomes more advanced. The intricacies of the cell have never more clearly revealed the incredible complexity of every system needed for life. It is hard not to describe ribosomes, transfer molecules, chaperonins, etc. as machines because of the precise way that they function. The mindboggling amount of information captured within the DNA of cells suggests a dizzying intelligence that was able to capture it all in such beautiful perfection. Going in the other direction and studying our universe and the narrow balances on which the existence of life exists gives us a view of God’s order and control.

    Many of the early scientists understood their work of exploration was leading them to know God better. Johannes Kepler wrote in his book, “The New Astronomy”, “Thus God himself was too kind to remain idle, and began to play the game of signatures, signing his likeness into the world.” Isaac Newton wrote in “General Scholium”, “this most beautiful system of sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.” So while it is true that it is men and women who do the exploration it is God who uses all of this to reveal Himself to the people of the world.

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    Hi Richard, It is an amazing thing that Craig Venter and his team have done but to say that he has “created life to some extent” is a real stretch. The copying of DNA code from a simple cell and then replicating that DNA with some additional markers and implanting it into another cell and observing that, as it reproduces, it carries with it the markers is more genetic manipulation than creating a new cell. Obviously I would never be able to do such a thing and I am impressed with Dr. Venter’s accomplishment but it is not creating life from inanimate chemicals.

    You say that we have accomplished much in a few hundred years and it would be too much to ask to replicate what took billions of years to happen by random chance, but I disagree. We know what the end result is and we have our intelligence to recreate what was supposed to have happened by random chance. The only reason that we are talking about billions of years is because it gives a thin veneer of respectability to the sheer statistical impossibility of evolution.

    You ask if I believe that God has a plan for my life and I absolutely do. On a large scale, I know that God has created me to be in relationship with Him. Humanity is unique in all of Creation because we bear the Image of God and that gives us a unique ability to know God in a way that no other creature can. As I live out that purpose I honour God and testify of His love, His power and His perfection.

    But God’s purpose for my life is far more specific than that. The Bible says that I am God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works with God has prepared in advance for me to do (Ephesians 2:10) So there are things that God has prepared for me to accomplish which help show His love and power to the rest of Creation. I know what that purpose is because He reveals truths about right living in the Bible, I hear Him speak to me—sometimes audibly but more often in an internal sense of peace and direction, and God often uses other people in my life to help direct my decisions as well. I am aware of God’s presence with me always and I have grown to recognize His hand directing my life moment by moment. As I live life looking for God’s leading I am living out that Big Picture Plan of relating to God: every moment I am looking and listening for His direction and asking for His help which is helping me get to know Him better and better all the time.

  • Callum says:

    God didn’t help discover the planets shape at all, yet alone any other science. Brave humans that were willing to question what was seen as “true” discovered it. Religion has adapted to science not the other way around, remember what happened when the forces of nature were discovered? The pope tried to declare them a heresy and eventually the catholic and christian religion just said “well actually we can’t beat that logic so now God made those forces.” – Science has done more for humanity in 100 years than religion has done for humanity in the past 10,000 years… wait sorry i forgot according to the bible the world is only 6000 years old *cough*.
    Don’t go allocating credit to a god that doesn’t deserve it. People like Einstein, Stephen Hawking..etc they’re the ones truly discovering and working toward a more advanced and knowledgeable humanity.

  • Jim van ommen says:

    So did those of that era who didn’t write the Bible.
    However, together we have come to the conclusion that planet Earth is indeed not flat.
    Just imagine what else we might discover if we work together with an open mind, pocket our pride and listen to what our Creator God has yet got in store for us.

  • Callum says:

    Also your planet theory is flawed seeing as the people who wrote the bible thought the world was flat. Good thing Science fixed it.

  • Callum says:

    This is the most stupid article I’ve ever read. Most of the information is wrong and [expletive removed] – A) Right and wrong can be biologically explained – B) No one is saying everything happened by chance you’re just educated. There are hundreds of thousands of planets capable of sustaining life. The earth is not special or unique. Grow up and stop [expletive removed] arguments to justify your imaginary friends.

  • Jim van Ommen says:

    Richard you said, quote:
    “Doubt is the great motivator for advancement of knowledge. You say we can waist too much time trying to understand things that are beyond our capacity to comprehend. If everyone thought like that we’d still be dying of infected cuts and your heart surgeon wouldn’t exist. You wouldn’t be using the internet…..etc.”
    Yes, you’re right yet billions of people have lived that way since the beginning of time and I don’t think it would be right to look upon them as a people who, by virtue of the era in which they lived were under privileged or deprived in any way, were they? I don’t really need to think very hard to think of many inventions and practices that would suggest the very opposite.
    Christians of all times believe that the importance is not how long we live, or what we die of, or what we invent, but the quality and purpose of life that leads beyond the grave to everlasting life with our Creator God. John 3:16
    How do I know that? Yes, here I guess we part our ways, but I would like to point you to what I have said earlier on this website, on the 6th Oct. 2012 in respect of proof and faith.
    Regards, Jim.

  • Richard says:

    Contrary to what you say, we have created life to some extent:
    We must remember that nature took perhaps billions of years of random events to create the tiniest spark of life that then took further millions of years to evolve in to us. So for us to have come as far as we have in only a few hundred years of science is quite spectacular.
    You are right; I will argue that just because we don’t know something there is no reason to fill the knowledge gap with a god. There is just no reason to do that other than laziness.
    I can’t argue that your life has become more meaningful because of a belief in a god. It still doesn’t indicate the existence of gods, just your need to believe in something bigger than yourself. If that works for you, that’s fine. As long as you keep in mind that belief in something without evidence is basically a delusion.
    Contrary to what you say, I think it’s much scarier to realise that we have no one leading the way. No one to thank or blame. There is no purpose. We must all simply take responsibility for our lives. There is no second chance when we die. Just look at how many religions and gods the world has had over the centuries. We all want someone to look after us. This only proves humanity’s needs, not the existence of gods (unless we are going to accept as real, all the gods through history).
    Do you honestly think your particular god has a purpose for you? How do you know what purpose that is? I am very interested in your response to these questions.
    Doubt is the great motivator for advancement of knowledge. You say we can waist too much time trying to understand things that are beyond our capacity to comprehend. If everyone thought like that we’d still be dying of infected cuts and your heart surgeon wouldn’t exist. You wouldn’t be using the internet.
    Would you let me operate on you because I told you to have faith that I was a heart surgeon? I don’t think you would. You’d want to know that I’d studied for many years and was qualified for the job. If you had any doubts about my ability you could find proof of my qualifications. You don’t need to know everything the surgeon knows, but you do need to know that the surgeon is a surgeon

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    Well if we are really honest with ourselves Richard we have to admit that life does not occur in the natural world–or at least in a world created by purely natural forces. No matter how hard scientists have tried to recreate the original environment in which chemicals combined together to become the building block amino acids from which life is formed they have never been successful. The problem is that all natural processes used to create amino acids can only produce a 50/50 split of left and right handed amino acids. And yet all proteins are made up of only left-handed amino acids. Right and left handed amino acid molecules lack chirality and therefore cannot combine to make the complex shapes of proteins. Conversely, DNA nucleotides are exclusively right handed molecules but all natural processes create a 50/50 split of right and left handed nucleotide molecules. There is no way that the complex helix spiral of the DNA could be made out of both right and left-handed molecules.

    Not only that but the experiments used to create that 50/50 split of right and left-handed amino acids were absolutely destructive to life. The high levels of methane and ammonia used in the experiment of Stanley Miller and Harold Urey would have destroyed any proteins that could have possibly been formed by the resulting amino acids.

    There are no known natural processes that could have made exclusively left-handed amino acids that are needed for the development of proteins and no known natural process that could have created those amino acids within an environment that is safe for the development of life. So the existence of life just on that basis needs some unnatural force–I would suggest a supernatural force–to create these basic building blocks. As far as being repeatable, well the vast number of proteins and DNA say that whatever–or whomever–was able to introduce chiral amino acids and nucleotides was able to do it again and again and again.

    And that is just one of the components of our ‘pond’ that does not occur in the natural world.

    Now I assume you will suggest that we just haven’t found out yet what natural processes created the building blocks of life and that this is not of itself a proof that God made amino acids with proper chirality. But right now, we have to look at those and admit that something outside of what we know has done this, which could very well point to the existence of God. The more we look at the universe around us and begin to add up all the parts that cannot be explained by natural processes we eventually have to admit this is no puddle, it’s a pond!

    The problem that so many people have with that is we then have to ask, “Who made our pond and what purpose does He have for us?” For all of us who are born with a desire to be the master of our own purpose and destiny, that is too scary of a question to face. We don’t want to have to conform to anybody else’s plan for our lives and so we keep on discounting the evidence and search for ways to describe our pond as a puddle. But what I have found is that when I was able to admit that our pond was made by God and began to investigate who He is and what His purpose is for me, a whole new reality of life opened up. It transformed the ways I related to the universe around me, other people in my life and myself. Looking to God for His direction and seeing His love for me expressed in a myriad of ways has brought a vibrancy to life that I could never have had otherwise.

  • Richard says:

    Thanks for the even tempered response.
    However, the pond in your back yard is clearly man made. There is a direct link to the manufacturer. It’s repeatable. We could have one made just like it. It’s made of materials that don’t occur in the natural world – plastic and rubber and probably rocks that have been cut with metal tools and cemented together. It’s unlikely that you’d find a natural pond with any of these elements, and if you did it would be reasonable to assume that it too was man made. Natural puddles will have none of these things and could be shown to have occurred though weathering or other natural act – no manufacturer needed.
    So the point is, if some water (people) trickles in to a puddle (our world) there is no reason to think the puddle was created for the water. The conditions were right for the water to be trapped in the puddle, that’s all.
    While I concede that it’s possible that for reasons unknown a greater power created the universe, then left it to evolve for billions of years; the likelihood is so remote and the evidence so non-existent that it doesn’t really warrant considering.
    Given the vastness of the universe and the infinite possibilities it represents, the chances of life arising accidentally seems immeasurably more likely than it being created by a god.
    And whether one is more likely than the other, the fact is there is no evidence of any gods existence.
    Having said that, I’m open to hear any convincing argument. By the way -“The world is so beautiful and works so well, it must be god’s creation” Is not a convincing argument.
    I love to think and debate about this subject, so I hope you’ll respond again.

  • Jim van Ommen says:

    Hi Jamie,

    I like your analogy, spot on and very difficult to argue with even on the basis of the theory of probability and analysis of random happening.
    I agree, there is no doubting that there was a purpose in the design of you and me and all of us, as well as our ecosystem, but Richard, we can waist too much precious time in trying to understand things that are beyond our capacity to comprehend. When we have this attitude that we must know all the details of God’s creation before we acknowledge Him for who He is and His purpose for us,we will stunt our growth spiritually. It’s like me saying to my doctor before I had my heart surgery: Doc. I will not go for this until I fully understand all aspects of this surgery and know all that you know. I think he would give my bed a gentle push sideways and say; Next !
    No, on second thoughts God is not like that, but He might say, come back when you are ready….. that’s if you get the chance.( theory of probability?….trade it in for faith) If pride is the obstacle, get rid of it, before ……………

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    Hi Richard, I actually have a “puddle” created in my yard that was specifically designed to be a puddle–ok, we call it a pond–and shows all kinds of evidence that it does indeed have a purpose to its design. If the puddle in my yard looked at its rubber lining, rock surrounding and pump creating the fountain, it could surmise that it was created for a specific purpose.

    Now I suppose that some other puddle could try to convince my pond that it all happened by accident and that it is deluded in thinking that it has a purpose but the sheer amount of elements that point to a specific purpose would be difficult to argue with.

    While I concede that it is possible that our universe and all of the factors needed for life to exist on our planet came together by accident, I am swayed by the volume of elements that needed to come together in order for life here to be a reality, for us to explore and understand the universe we are in, and to connect with the One who created it all. To dismiss all of those elements as pure chance seems to denote a closed mind to the possibility of something divine. Are you saying that it is impossible for there to exist a God powerful enough, intelligent enough, and loving enough to create us and a universe for us to live in and enjoy relationship with Him?

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    Hi Anonymous, whenever someone says “like all…” and then makes a huge generalization about a group of people I get pretty suspicious. Your statement is not only not true–I have met atheists who have changed their views on issues of faith–but it is also demeaning. This forum is intended for people to have a safe exchange of ideas without being maligned or disrespected. It is a reasonable assumption that we can have different points of view but still show respect for each other. I ask that if you want to continue in this conversation that you show appropriate respect for everybody’s point of view.

  • Richard says:

    Anonymous, I am indeed an atheist. I am an atheist because there is (so far) no reason to suspect that any gods exist. Contrary to what you seem to think, I am completely open to changing my views. When I see evidence that contradicts my current views I am more than happy to be proven wrong. I would have thought that was the very definition of reasonable.
    Yes, the universe is an amazing place. But the puddle who thinks the hole fits him so well it must have been designed for him, is no more deluded than you are. We don’t know and will probably never know how existence came about, but simply inventing gods (as humans have done for millennia) doesn’t give us any answers. It just creates one more unnecessary question.
    Could you ever entertain the idea that the reason god doesn’t “fix the world” is simply because he doesn’t exist?
    I’m not one to defend the qua ran but if you “do some research” and read your bible, I think you’ll find it’s every bit as full of violence, rape, slavery, misogyny and baby killing.
    Moses parting the Red sea, Jesus walking on water, Balaam’s talking donkey are so much more believable than the qua ran’s flying donkey because..?
    Of course Yahweh is an Arab name. Where, and by which peoples do you think the bible was written? Or do you think jesus was a blue eyed American?
    I can’t speak for all atheists (like you seem to) but I don’t believe in aliens – at least not ones who’ve visited us. No one I know believes in aliens. There is no more evidence of aliens than of gods.
    “Heaven is sort of wrapped around the ever growing universe.” Could you tell me how you (sort of) know this?
    I look forward to your response.
    All the best,

  • Anonymous says:

    Richard, you are an atheist and like all atheists, you are unreasonable and have no intention of changing your views. Think of it this way, we have food, water, gravity, air, a sun for warmth,and a moon to block meteors. That’s an awful lot coincidences if you atheist’s believe in the big bang theory. What are the chances that all these necessities just happened to come into existence? As for the unholy qu’ran, it teaches nothing but violence, rape, murder, and falsity. It states that mountains came from space,that muhammad flew on a winged donkey,that women can only amount to a footstool,that angels strangle people,that heaven has whore’s and little boy servants and that the Judeo-christian god,YHWH, was actually called allah, an Arab name. This makes no sense at all. Before you say it, the reason that God doesn’t fix the world is because he shouldn’t have to clean up OUR mess. The next argument you atheists would most likely throw at us Christians is ” Why is there a hell if God is all merciful?” Simple, would you want a mass murderer or rapist in paradise? Another common question would be why did he kill so many people? All the people that he killed deserved what they got. Sodom and Gomorrah was full of rape mobs, homosexuals,murderers,stealing, and even people who sacrificed their children to idols and ate them.As for the Jews that he killed, that was because the only thing that people of the day understood was fear.He was a little harsh but, he was fair. Cain received a mark, it is possible that he was turned into an ape-like person and that him and his descendants had to work their way back to being human. Most atheists believe in alien’s, well, it’s possible that the giants of the bible, called “Nephilim” were the aliens who gave the people the technology to make the pyramids. Leviathan and Behemoth could very well be descriptions of water and land dinosaurs. As for the Jesus wannabe’s like Mithra, that’s completely wrong.I researched Mithra, he didn’t die for peoples sins and therefore wasn’t resurrected either. Lastly, do some research, God has nothing to do with the sky, heaven is sort of rapped around the ever growing universe.

  • Jim van Ommen says:

    “Who did Jesus think he was? And why should I care?

    In response to these questions, the first questions asked on this website, I would like to have a go at answering these questions from my own experience.

    Who does Jesus think He is?

    It is not a very polite question, in fact one that would immediately put our hackles up if we were asked that same question, wouldn’t it? Well, it didn’t with Jesus, He spent years responding to those kind of questions and explained who He was/is/will be, because He cares for them, you, me and everybody else and wants to show us the way to live lives that are for real, worth living. The only way to find out how to do that is to ask Him and show you.
    I tell you it is not just pie in the sky as religious as you may think this kind of talk sounds.

    Why should you care?

    Well for me it was not a matter of why should I, but over the years I increasingly felt the need to find out more about Jesus and to me it is more important than breathing and I say that not just because I have been on death door more than once, but because He gives me peace, purpose, direction fulfilment and joy like nothing else can. Breathing you can do only just for a lifetime, but taking in all that Jesus has to offer is not just for the life hereafter, it starts from day one.
    And who do I think I am? Just a bloke who’s been given a second chance, third one even, that’s the kind of Lord He is.

  • Shrinivas says:

    His love is divine and very pure!

  • Jim van Ommen says:

    How do we prove that God does exist, I exist, anything exists are popular questions that I believe some people would ask not necessarily in all sincerity, but more so to appear somewhat philosophical, or in search for the deeper meanings in life. In response to that question I would ask an equally valid question: how do we proof that anyone or anything does not exist. Think about it.
    The answer in my book is, we cannot because what does not exist is not perceptible to the human mind and therefore beyond proof in the context of the meaning of the word proof. The only person ever to have any real dealings with that which does not exist is our Creator God who made this universe and us out of nothing.
    If we then are unable to proof that anyone or anything does not exist on what basis can we assume that we can prove who or what does exist? What makes us think that we have the understanding and the capacity to reverse what God has created in the first place in an attempt to explain away ourselves, God and His creation?
    Definition of PROOF according to the Webster dictionary is: The cogency of evidence that compels acceptance by the mind of a truth or a fact…. and the word COGENCY means: Appealing to the intellect or powers of reasoning; convincing.
    I would like to ask the question; what is the significance of that which is “ appealing to the intellect of the human mind “ as compared with the wisdom of the One who created us out of nothing? Was does the Bile say about the wisdom of the wise?
    What we need to realise is that the word proof is earthbound it has no application or validity in the spiritual realm. We literally need to trade that in for the word faith if we want any enlightenment whatsoever. Faith in our Creator God who has revealed himself in Jesus Christ His Son, who has and continues to show the way to those who humble themselves and follow Him. It is like a metamorphosis where the butterfly emerges from its cocoon to spread it’s wings as it flies to the live giving light.

    Proverbs 3: 5-6

  • Jamie Jamie says:

    There are some interesting stories on the link that you shared here Pavel. The similarities in the stories from other religions should certainly be reason to assess the claims of Christianity closely. I think one of the questions that comes to my mind when I consider that the stories of Jesus were ‘borrowed’ from other religious writings is, “Why didn’t anybody dispute the veracity of the stories of Jesus at the time they were written?” One of the unique things about Christianity is that there is so much specific information given in the accounts of Jesus life that speak of His public ministry that it could be quickly identified as a hoax by a large part of the population of the province of Palestine. You look at Luke’s account of the beginning of John the Baptist’s ministry, “In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar– when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene– during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert.” (Luke 3:1-2) The detailed historical specifics quickly identifies the time period that all of this took place. Considering that Luke wrote this account anywhere between 65 & 100 AD there were still many people around who would have been able to dispute the existence of such a man named John. Many of the aspects of Jesus life took place with huge crowds involved, again giving opportunity for dispute if the facts were altered or completely fabricated. Yet there is never a critique on the existence of the man named Jesus. There is no serious denial of the miracles He performed. The most notably public part of His life was His arrest, trial and death, yet the Jewish authority of the day never make any argument against those details of the Gospel accounts.

    If those were fabricated stories why was there never any First Century dispute of their veracity?

  • Pavel says:

    Oh and just because a majority thinks it knows what truth is, does not make it a truth. Every religion at some point was treated as a minority, and each future religion that eventually outgrew the past ones condemned the older ones to being heresy and untruth. do you see the ultimate flaw of such logic? religions are just fads that come and go, that ultimately think they have the best radical way of viewing our creation. its ideas are fed to children with developing minds, and once taken root these ideas pretty much corrupt some of these children into a static/stagnant way of thinking. As our minds develop from child to adult the strongest memories are the ones from our childhood. The gradient flow of religions will always intertwine with how well we develop culturally, and technologically, and economically. Religion suits the Poorest of the economic classes the most as they have all the more reason to have faith as it grants them eternal bliss if they follow the set of rules, and morals written out by the bible. it also suits people who have experience some kind of miraculous event in their life that stemmed into religious thoughts like god saving them from death in a car accident. I think the ice cream effect applies to these scenarios. what is the ice cream effect? it’s just that people need something comfort them when they’re down. a motivation for progressive thinking and innovation and moving on with life. Religion does just exactly that for some people. the last reason as to why religious ideas are so ingrained into some peoples brains is their family’s personal beliefs. Beliefs are usually carried down a family line, down generations just like i said previously. It’s ingrained into children s heads through scripture readings, and going to church or having to pray, and lack of other kinds of education. You could even say that the unwillingness and stubbornness of religion is just a self defense mechanism in the mind that only there to defend the preexisting ideas, and their own credibility. When someone tries to convince you to another way of thinking, or that your ideas are flawed what is the first thing that people do? they stubbornly refuse to be incorrect, and say that because they’re so accustomed to believing in one think that they refuse to change. it’s like they’ve given a piece of their existence to accepting this belief. It’s in human nature to behave like such as these are neural traces built into these peoples brains.
    If that’s not enough to convince you otherwise then i really do not know what will. here’s one concluding thought to leave you scratching at your head. if humans create synthetic life such as self aware robots in the future with the ability to upgrade themselves, and have emotion just like humans. will they look up to us as gods, or just continue to sustain their way of living. most likely the latter. they might even potentially go against us as they consider themselves superior at some point if they are completed enough. so in a way humans our they’re own masters and gods, we can modify, create, think, and spawn new ideas into reality. if the scriptures described anything it was that we are our own gods, and we live in a state of hell, and heaven based on the things we do to other people. and that we can spawn into creation whatever our imagination so desires as long as we put effort into it. Science will reign as the ultimate kind in the future, as it has the best way of looking at life. Have a good day sir i think I’ve covered pretty much every idea that atheists believe in.

  • Pavel says:

    did you know that several descriptions of “sons of god” exist with peculiarly similar characteristics like being a son of god, a carpenter, being to do holy things. I’m sure over a dozen of similar descriptions of men exist, and Christianity has failed to admit their existence in other scriptures. If you agree to completely disregard these people, then what gives your god/savior any credibility at all. Writings aren’t proof of any deity at all and are succeptible to interpretation therefore coming to the absolute conclusion of the existence of a deity is preposterous. It’s like going on Wikipedia reading about how dinosaur bones are all human engineered makeups, and that they don’t really exist and then actually believing it even though a majority of people have enough empirical evidence to suggest that they do. theologians must consider the fact that the universe is remarkably gigantic by nature, and that life is probably one of the universes inevitable outcomes. Given enough time matter in some forms can shape up to understand itself through the form of programming. all of nature is just patterns, our universe is one, our neural programming is one, everything is a structure, a pattern that follows given rules. we do not understand the given presence of these rules, but cannot ultimately to jump to conclusions without properly investigating the matter. Religion does just this, but saying the universe is to complicated for it to have sprung up out of nowhere, but how does adding in a deity factor help solve an equation. it offers a radical explanation of our existence and is ultimately also very unsatisfying. questions like where did this deity come from, and in whatever shape or form he’s in what led to his creation? another diety perhaps? preposterous. our universe is just a random configuration of natural properties that exist under conditions which we are not all to familiar with. God theory just comforts the mind, and lets you ease into death much smoother, and feeling more complete. Its foundations are based on novels without any evidence, and on the belief that morals spring out of the existence of god. how do you know that morality isn’t just another step of evolution that intellectually enlightened being such as ourselves experience after a given amount of time, and learning about ourselves and the universe. several existing theological theories exist that are just as random as the other. What gives their idea any less validation then yours. under my skepticism their ideas have just as much validation.
    Have you ever thought about the existence of alien beings that have visited our planet and enhanced our genetics as well as given as more knowledge to help us survive and give birth to future ultra intelligent beings. this idea is also very radical, but given scriptures, accounts from tribes in the past, the existence of pyramids and other such remarkable sights that are hard to replicate using modern tools all done over several hundred years using stone age tools? The ancient alien theory is all the more satisfying, and credible then the existence of said flying spaghetti monster that spends his time focusing on punishing people who do not follow his given set of rules. For all we know those were punishments given to people under the tyranny of aliens several thousands of years ago during a time when ancient language first sprung out in Sumerian times. I find it much harder to follow a theoulogist way of thinking than even that of the ancient aliens way of thinking. Evidence > no evidence. Truth > Belief.

  • Richard says:

    Well said George.

  • Sharon says:

    good article but i guess we all have to experience if HE exist i know he does but its up to people if God exists i know through creation thank you for posting this

  • George says:

    I really don’t know what to think. The level of ignorance by the author of this article is simply baffling. Yes, it’s very unlikely that we are alive today. UNLIKELY DOESN’T MEAN IMPOSSIBLE. Let’s say that there are a billion billion planets in the Universe, which, if I’m not mistaken, is actually close to the current estimate. Let’s say that there’s a one-in-a-billion chance that a planet can sustain life. That means that there are most likely a billion planets in this universe that can sustain life. Its that simple. Also, consider the fact that oxygen was once poisonous-and obviously you can’t have life in a planet with a poisonous atmosphere, so the plants adapted to taking this chemical in and eventually so did the animals. Think about arsenic-based life forms. Their existence seems mind-boggling to religious people, yet to atheists such as myself, it’s quite obvious that they evolved to withstand a chemical lethal to humans. About your first proof-it was Bronze-Age primitive people who came up with religion and convinced a whole bunch of people to follow it. Let me ask you something-do you believe in Hinduism? Of course not, you say. You reject that religion without a second thought. So what causes you to come up with these rationalizations in order to explain your own religion? It’s because you’re afraid of the truth. As for the 747 gambit, it’s utterly pointless and overused. Now let me ask you another question-who designed the designer? And if you find yourself saying that God is timeless, well then, I’m afraid you’re making up further rationalizations. Religion is an unstable house that can be brought down by a child’s innocent question. Questions like this include-why is there evil? Why did god send down himself to be crucified in order to save mankind from sin,
    A quality that god bestowed on humanity in the first place? It makes no sense. God must be imaginary. In response to the argument that you will throw back at me, I offer these simple words from Hugh Laurie’s character on House, MD.
    “if you could reason with religious people, then there wouldn’t be any more religious people.”

  • Andrew says:


    The argument which you continue to use is that I am unable to provide you with any factual information that the Bible is true. Then let me reverse your argument as if you say you have an open mind then prove to me that what the Bible teaches is false as you would be unable to do so. You take only a piece of the Bible here and a piece their and distort it to what you believe it to be say as many times in the Bible it is not speaking in the literal since but figuratively and not the whole book so you mock the Bible as if you would take the time to try to disprove it’s prophesies you would be unable to or the argument that you use is because man did what was promised in the Bible it is untrue and not worthy of mentioning.

    Their is one major difference between the Bible and the Koran the Koran was written by ONE man who died and he wrote his personal beliefs as I don’t profess to be an expert on the Koran. The Koran is not a prophetic book but the belief of what a man thought God was saying to him. The Bible was written by many Godly men who were instructed by God what to write which included the prophets as well as his disciples who witnessed his life during his three years of ministry.

    You are speaking on purely legal terms whereas my argument is of the spirit as it is impossible to convince as when I mentioned you were in the minority and lonely it was in the figurative since. Sure there always will people of like minds for people to associate with. When you mention Christian nation you are purely talking legally as not all people believe that Christ died for them just as Hitler or Stalin never did!.

    Why would I want to take your little pearl that is worthless from your open hand when I will have a house of pure gold that will last forever in eternity? You can try with all your might to discredit Christ however like Hitler, Stalin, Nero, former communist leaders, present day Chinese leaders all have failed. The reason for there failure is something which you will never be able to comprehend as Christ through the Holy Spirit gives a person a sense of peace and joy which is indescribable. This my dear friend is something you can mock all you wish as if you look at history many have done so. Communist countries leaders did not believe in God and tried to stamp out peoples belief in God. The same with China however according to this article
    There are well over 100 million Christians in China alone which kind of beats your 25 to 35 % of Australia as your nation is 24 million so roughly 4 million don’t think God exists. If you take it a step further and take the whole worlds billions of people your 4 million is in the minority.

    You can be as intellectual as you wish to be as when God created me he did so with the ability to accept him and sense his spirit after I accepted him the more critical, angry, irate you get the more I sense his love and Holy Spirit which is why I continue to answer your hateful messages. The greater the storm within my life the more I sense the Holy Spirit and Gods presence. God created people as yourself who have hardened their hearts to create strife so others will draw closer to him like the clam the more people try to destroy Christians the more it grows. This is what gives you peace because life can appear to be pretty easy when you believe in nothing but oneself. YOU can yell,scream, hurl insults all you wish as in the scripture it says that all human beings will bow before him which includes me as well as you. What you will never ever be able to comprehend is the trinity and mostly the Holy Spirit as how can you tell someone who senses God’s Holy Spirit through Christ that he is wrong? YOU Can’t. The only argument that you have is that it is magic ok call it that if you wish as it does not offend me. I know from my own personal experience and the experience of others that the Holy Spirit exists. If you want factual proof seek it out yourself because for me personally and the millions of Christians around the world know he exists which is enough for me. I am unable to interpret the Holy Spirit for you as until a person believes in Christ they only see one part of the scriptures and interpret as per their way of thinking.

    YOU have every right to not believe in God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit as that is what free will is so then don’t believe in God. The right which you don’t have is to mock someones belief as Christian bashing is becoming a popular sport in the media as people like myself who believe in Christ respect your views however many atheists try through legal means and brow beating to remove God from the public. That is wrong. God Bless,

  • Richard says:

    Yes the Koran was written by a man. A man who spoke directly to God. Just like the bible was written by men. Men who said they spoke to God or a guy who claimed to be God’s son. Why believe one over the other? Again I’m guessing it’s because you were born in a predominantly Christian country, not the Middle East. If you and I had been born in a Muslim county you would be backing Muhammad and I’d be arguing in Arabic.

    You say I’m in the minority being an atheist and I must be lonely. Being in the minority doesn’t make me wrong. (Christianity was in the minority for a long time but it seems to have caught on a bit. So I can always hope that Freethinking and common sense will catch on too). As for being lonely, I simply don’t know anyone who believes in a Magical Sky God, so no, I’m not lonely so don’t feel bad for me.
    Happily I live in Australia. Our current Prime Minister is an atheist.
    According to Wikipedia ( something like 25 – 30 % of Australians consider themselves atheist and the number rises every year. Here are some quotes from the article:

    In a 2008 global Gallup poll, nearly 70% of Australians stated religion as having no importance,[19] much higher than their American counterparts, and on par with similarly secular countries such as Japan, the Netherlands, Finland, and France. Only a few Scandinavian countries (Norway, Sweden, Denmark) and post-Soviet states (Estonia) are markedly less religious.
    The Sydney Morning Herald, an Australian newspaper, asked its readers “Would the world be better off without religion?”. 81% responded in the affirmative.[20][dead link]
    A 2006 study by Monash University, the Australian Catholic University and the Christian Research Association found that 52 per cent of Australians born between 1976 and 1990 have no belief in a God.[21
    So no, I’m not lonely.

    You say my intellect prevents me from having faith. I agree, just as my intellect prevents me believing 2 and 2 makes 5.

    To continue your analogy, I am not a dog trying to pry open a clam. I am the man with the open clam, trying to offer you the oyster inside. You just don’t want to see it.

    You have offered no “factual information” that proves the bible correct.

    All the best.

  • Richard says:

    Yes the Koran was written by a man. A man who spoke directly to God. Just like the bible was written by men. Men who said they spoke to God or a guy who claimed to be God’s son. Why believe one over the other? Again I’m guessing it’s because you were born in a predominantly Christian country, not the Middle East. If you and I had been born in a Muslim county you would be backing Muhammad and I’d be arguing in Arabic.

    You say I’m in the minority being an atheist and I must be lonely. Being in the minority doesn’t make me wrong. (Christianity was in the minority for a long time but it seems to have caught on a bit. So I can always hope that Freethinking and common sense will catch on too). As for being lonely, I simply don’t know anyone who believes in a Magical Sky God, so no, I’m not lonely, so don’t feel bad for me.
    Happily I live in Australia. Our current Prime Minister is an atheist.
    According to Wikipedia ( something like 25 – 30 % of Australians consider themselves atheist and the number rises every year. Here are some quotes from the article:

    In a 2008 global Gallup poll, nearly 70% of Australians stated religion as having no importance,[19] much higher than their American counterparts, and on par with similarly secular countries such as Japan, the Netherlands, Finland, and France. Only a few Scandinavian countries (Norway, Sweden, Denmark) and post-Soviet states (Estonia) are markedly less religious.
    The Sydney Morning Herald, an Australian newspaper, asked its readers “Would the world be better off without religion?”. 81% responded in the affirmative.[20]
    A 2006 study by Monash University, the Australian Catholic University and the Christian Research Association found that 52 per cent of Australians born between 1976 and 1990 have no belief in a God.[21
    So no, I’m not lonely.

    You say my intellect prevents me from having faith. I agree, just as my intellect prevents me believing 2 and 2 makes 5.

    To continue your analogy, I am not a dog trying to pry open a clam. I am the man with the open clam, trying to offer you the oyster inside. You just don’t want to see it.

    You have offered no “factual information” that proves the bible correct.

    All the best.

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