It’s A Party
Photo by cobalt123
Jesus is God.
Pure, magnificent, holy.
He is perfect and
reigns over Earth.
Jesus is Man.
He came to serve,
not to be served.
Experiencing grief,
death, temptation, and pain.
He identifies with us,
understands us,
and is compassionate.
God the Son became
God our Brother.
We’re all in God’s family.
Christmas is about family.
Celebrating the most
important birthday.
It’s a party – and you’re invited.
Jesus is not God, but one of his mighty messengers!
It is deeply sad many people won’t understand it until the Judgement Day!
May the one and only creator of this universe who has to partner guides us all!
Hi Faham. Thanks for your comment. Followers of Jesus over the ages believe that Jesus is God and you can no doubt find reasons why all over the interwebs. One of my favs is Dr. William Craig who addresses this in http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-birth-of-god
I think believing Jesus is God is the reason why many celebrate Christmas. Jesus is not just the messenger, but is the message of love. That message being that Jesus gave of himself so that we can have a relationship with God through his eventual death and resurrection.
Hope you find the link helpful. Would love to hear why you think Jesus is not God from your perspective. Hope you have a great Christmas!
Thanks for your kind response! I’ve seen numerous debates of this kind with many great scholars involved. I love Jesus and I try following him, that’s why I never bow down to Jesus. I prostrate to the One that Jesus has prostrated to, Jesus said I have no power on my own! so if he says I am the way the truth and the light, he is saying that just like any messenger in time is the way the truth and the light! Jesus never said worship me (in the whole bible)! so do not worship him! Love Jesus, Obey Jesus, Follow Jesus, because he is the messenger of God and the massage is: there is a God, One True God, One Omnipotent God! so learn the message, and find that God in your heart through the messengers.
Glorified He the creator!
Hi Faham, thanks for posting your comments here. I would agree that looking at the life of Jesus is very instructive for how we should live. Jesus had many people who worshiped Him and yet Jesus never corrected their actions. It started at with the wise men who bowed down and worshiped the baby Jesus (Matthew 2:11). When Jesus restored the blind man’s sight, the man responded by worshipping Jesus (John 9:38) We also see Jesus’ disciples worshipping Him when He calmed the storm while they were out on the boat (Matthew 14:33). The women who came to honour him after His death were surprised by coming face to face with the Resurrected Jesus and the clasped his feet and worshipped Him (Matthew 28:9).
Jesus also told His disciples that to see Him was to see God (John 14:9) and when Jesus forgave the sins of a paralyzed man He affirmed that only God is able to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-10) It is clear that Jesus saw Himself one-in-the-same with God the Father.
The only way that Jesus could have offered payment for the sin of us all was if He was God. The death of a man would be sufficient for another man but only the death of God could have infinite sufficiency. So because He was human just like all of us He was able to represent us perfectly, and because He was also fully divine His death pays for an infinite amount of sin, the sin of the whole world!
That is the claim He has made in the Bible, and I trust my life and my eternal destiny in Him and His promise.
I really appreciate your time and courage, for being patient with my posts while they challenge some of the basics if your belief. Here I’m putting the “Lord’s Prayer” Matthew 6:9-13:
Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
I invite you to ponder courageously upon the above statements of Jesus.
Do you think that’s the prayer of a son-god to a father-god or an incarnated god to himself, or a servant of God to one Almighty God.
Do you really think Jesus has caused everyone’s sins to be forgiven forever, and worshipping him makes us irresponsible for the consequences of our deeds?
That’s an incomplete puzzle, but finding other pieces of it needs courage, intellect and of course humbleness.
Glad tidings to all those who found the truth and immersed in it. I don’t have more than one life to spend it so easily on a lose consumption full of conflicts and weaknesses, I’d put all my mind and heart in to make the best choice with my eyes as open as possible.
Well Faham the purpose of this site is to provide a place for people to share what they believe about God and interact with other people’s belief. I don’t mind at all your questions because I want to make sure that I am communicating clearly what I believe about who Jesus is and what He has done for humanity.
First of all, let me say that the prayer you have quoted from Jesus was one that He used to teach other people about prayer and communication with God. It was not necessarily a format for the way Jesus prayed. I think if you want to understand the way that Jesus talked to His Father in Heaven you can look at one quoted in John 17 that He prayed just prior to His arrest and subsequent crucifixion, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.” There is much more that He also said in this prayer but that kind of gives you a taste. The request to be restored to the glory He had with God before the world began is a request that only the Son of God could make.
It is not that I think that Jesus’ death has atoned for the sins of the whole world but rather that I know it because that is the testimony of the Word of God through His servant John who wrote, “He [Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1John 2:2) The death of Jesus was the payment for the penalty of all of humanity’s rebellion against God, but there are many who choose not to receive that gift from God but prefer to try and make atonement for themselves. They believe that somehow the good things that they do will outweigh the bad things that they do, think and say. What they do not realize is that even one sin makes us a law breaker. James, the half-brother of Jesus wrote, “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.” (James 2:10) Another place in the Bible we are told that all of us have sinned and fallen short of God’s glorious standard which is perfection (Romans 3:23) Now of course that is an impossible standard for any of us to live up to and yet how can God accept any level of sin and rebellion? He is the Almighty Creator, beautiful in His Perfection. To accept any amount of sin would go against His perfect character.
And yet He loves those He has created and desires to have relationship with us because that is the purpose for which He has created us. So in His amazing love He sent His Son, whose name was Yeshua (Jesus in Latin and English) which means “God saves” and Emmanuel which means “God with us”, so that He could die in our place, paying the penalty for our sin. As Paul put it, “God made Him [Jesus] who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2Corinthians 5:21) Jesus took our sin on Himself and in return offers us His perfection.
So it is not that we are no longer responsible for the consequences of our deeds but that the penalty has been paid for by the eternal Son of God. There is no need for that penalty to be paid again. However everyone is free to receive that gift or not. If a person decides that they can do a better job of paying for their own sin Jesus does not force them to receive His offer. But it seems to me to be an awfully arrogant statement that one’s own acts are better than the perfection of God.
The interesting thing is, all other religions and world views do exactly that, try to pay the penalty of sin through their own efforts. Buddhists attempt to reach perfection through following the Four-Fold Truth and the Eight-Fold Path; Hindus attempt to break the cycle of reincarnation by following the different paths and purifying themselves and their ethics; Islamic people attempt to purify themselves through prayer and righteous living*. If it is true that there is only one way to be made right with God wouldn’t it make sense that this one path would be strikingly different than all other paths? Doesn’t it make sense that if only God can forgive sins that He would have to be the one who makes atonement for those sins? It is something to think about isn’t it?!
*I realize that all of these are gross over-simplifications of the beliefs of these religious views but I think they still do capture the basic understanding of how a person attains atonement for their sins.
So according to you, God saw people committing crimes on earth, then sent his son to be killed in their place and pay the penalty for their sin, then they can continue the crime without being worried any more?
Nay! God has given you intellect, but you are responsible to use it!
Considering a human to be the son of god, is insulting God Almighty. There is one source for the creation, and that source is not shared among a father and his son! The truth is every person should expect the reward for his deeds, so both of us surely will see the results of our deeds on the judgement day, lets get prepared! Do you think worshipping Jesus beside God and preaching that is going to help you? While Jesus never preached that!
We need to be more serious, because this universe seems so serious. Worshipping One Almighty God is what has been preached by many other messengers before Jesus, and Jesus has delivered the same message. The same important message, which Satan always tried to divert people from receiving that. So do not be diverted again like many people of ages ago.
Seek the truth, open your heart and ask God Almighty to help you finding that!
O Almighty God the creator of this universe, of me, forgive us, that you can do that with no need for anyone killed for the price to be paid (if the price is paid it is not forgiving any more)!
Actually Faham, Jesus did preach that. It was He who said, “God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16) He then went on to say, “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John 3:18)
And the transformation that happens in a person’s heart who puts their trust in Jesus’ sacrifice on their behalf is that they are set free from the hold that sin and crimes have on their life. They no longer want to do those crimes and they are empowered by God to stop doing those things. It is not out of a fear of judgement but from a heart of love and gratitude that a follower of Jesus lives a life free from sin.
You are right Faham, God is so much more perfect than humans in every way and for anyone to suggest that He should become one of us is insulting to Him who is praised forever. And yet He loved us so much He chose to become human like us so that He could rescue us from our slavery to sin and the destiny of destruction that we have chosen. It is the ultimate expression of love! He allowed Himself to experience the insult so that you and I could have our sin paid for and be free to live with Him forever.
One of Jesus’ disciples was as concerned about the honour of God as you are Faham. When he saw Jesus come to wash his feet, Peter said, “Never!” but Jesus said, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.” (John 13:8) Yes it is a humiliating position that God has taken, but He has chosen to do this for us because He loves us and the only way that we can be set free from our sin is for Him to do what He has done.
So Faham, do you believe that you are able to wash yourself clean enough to reach God’s standard of perfection?
Again, thanks for your time spending for the truth to be revealed.
Jamie, as you see, these statements can be used to support both of our claims. Though you are putting some of them such as the Lord’s Prayer conflicting with the others aside and labelling them as prayers taught for people and on the other hand you are using some vague statements to frame an irrational claim.
Whenever the logic is violated you claim that it is out of abundant love which is overwhelming and to put it in short you are taking a severely emotional position which suffers certain contradictions.
According to the Lord’s prayer: “…and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.” This is God himself who lead us into temptation and again it is He himself who can deliver us from evil! So why does God lead us into temptation and then sends his son to take care of that? What is the wisdom then? But what I believe is that this world is a world of test, and God leads us into temptation or away from it based on our deeds and the choices we make, and we are constantly tested by the freedom of choice He has granted us. The whole concept of Judgement Day is about the choices we make in this world, we would be judged for them, otherwise there is no point for choosing the better choice. For those who think like you, there is no place for a day of Judgement, don’t you think there is something missing then? Even the Lord’s Prayer is contradicting with what you say: If someone worship Jesus, he is forgiven for every sin he commits, why should he make such a prayer then?
I know you’ve gone so far with worshipping Jesus, and it is hard to change your mind at once, though I think you are still missing some pieces of this puzzle.
May the truth reaches everyone’s heart.
I am sorry Faham that my statements have seemed vague and irrational. I must not be communicating them well. I will try to be more clear. If there is something that I have written that seems unclear let me know and I will try again to clarify.
The context of the Lord’s Prayer in Luke’s Gospel is a request made by Jesus’ disciples that He would teach them to pray. Jesus responds, “When you pray, say: ‘Our Father…'” (Luke 11:1-2) The same prayer is recorded by Matthew in his Gospel and the context is also Jesus teaching others to pray. He said, “Pray, then, in this way: ‘Our Father…” (Matthew 6:9) So as I wrote earlier this is not a record of Jesus praying but rather an example He used to teach others to pray.
Your concern about the apparent paradox in Lord’s Prayer about God leading a person into temptation is no contradiction at all. The statement is not implying that God is the one who tempts people but rather reflects a sincere desire of the follower of Jesus not to fall to the lure of temptation. The best way to avoid sin is to avoid the temptation in the first place, so Jesus is teaching His followers to look to God for leading away from temptation.
But as you point out, life is full of tests. The Bible often points out that people are faced with certain situations because God wanted to test their faith. Untested faith is no faith at all. It is only when we are faced with challenges and trials that we have opportunity to depend on God for help and allow His Spirit to bring us through the trial successfully. That is part of the beautiful truth of the Good News of Jesus: He not only pays the penalty for our sin, but He promises to empower us through His Spirit to live a life that is pleasing to God. Paul wrote, that is we live under the control of the Holy Spirit we will not satisfy the desires of our sinfulness (Galatians 5:16). Instead we will produce a character of Jesus which is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control (Galatians 5:23).
I have to admit there is an emotional component of my relationship with Jesus. Whenever I think about the sacrifice that He has made for me and the blessing that He brings into my life, I get overwhelmed with gratitude and joy. But that emotion does not mean that the truth is irrational. It makes more sense than any other belief system that I have ever looked at.
Now perhaps you have a belief system that is more rational than mine. Tell me, how does your belief instruct you about paying for the penalty of sins that you have committed in your life?
This is how Luke 11:1-4 begins:
<<>>
As you see Jesus has been praying and the disciple asked him to teach that just like how John did, to me all this makes Jesus a messenger not a god. So not only this is not true that “it is no a record of Jesus praying” but it is exactly a record of Jesus praying!
You want to know how do I ask for forgiveness of my sins? The answer is right there in the Lord’s Prayer! The prayer teaches to ask God for forgiveness of your sins. If Jesus is the price for the penalty and if God needs a price to be paid then why does it say: “…and forgive us our trespasses” or maybe you think this prayer is expired after Jesus is gone?
The concept of a price needed to be paid for sins to be forgiven is itself contradictory! For something that its priced is paid it is not called forgiveness any more, you call it forgiveness when no price is paid. The Lord’s Prayer clearly shows God doesn’t need any price to be paid to forgive a sin! You can ask sincerely and God can forgive all of your sins! But God is the one who secrets of hearts is exposed to him, so he can easily identify a sincere servant!
Again, thanks for your posts, I wish all of us to become true followers of Jesus Christ, that he was a mighty messenger sent as a mercy from our creator.
This is how Luke 11:1-4 begins:
One day Jesus was praying in a certain place. When he finished, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, just as John taught his disciples.”
(sorry it is dropped from my previous post)
Hi Faham! Sorry for being late to reply. It has been a busy few days and haven’t had the chance to write out a response to you. Thank you for your time in explaining your view. I will try to add to the conversation.
Jesus did pray to God the Father, but that does not make Jesus just a messenger. Not only does it serve to be a teaching example to his disciples to do the same, it highlights the unique person of Jesus. The Bible talks about Jesus being God but “emptied himself” to take the form of a human (Philippians 2:5-11).
Later on in that passage, it talks about how Jesus is exalted to be worshiped to the glory of God.
So Faham, you use Luke to make your point to demonstrate that Jesus is just the messenger. If you hold Luke to be true, how do you deal with other passages of Luke where Jesus is equating himself as God? Examples of this are Luke 5: 17-25 where he proved that he can forgive sins when only God can forgive sins and then openly forgives sin of the women in Luke 7: 36-50.
Later on in Luke, Jesus equates himself to God by saying he will seat beside the right hand of God in heaven and also will send the Holy Spirit. Only God can do these things (Luke 22:66-71 and Luke 24″44-49).
This is the reason I believe that Jesus is God – because he claimed to be God by his words and actions.
As to your assertion a price needs to be paid for forgiveness is contradictory may be true from a human point of view. But if that is what God requires, than that is what is needed. Our own human nature reflects this as we all crave justice when a wrong has been done – whether to us or to someone else. I do not think it is contradictory at all in my point of view.
I think we see examples of people forgiving others without justice being exacted because those people usually understand that Jesus has paid that price and that is the reason why they can truly forgive – because they themselves have experienced forgiveness from Jesus.
Thanks for the response, though I couldn’t find anything new in it. Again taking emotional and contradictory positions with no logical support, and that is actually not your mistake. As you mentioned before there are parts of bible which doesn’t match each other, and your view as a whole doesn’t match the message of previous messengers. So I leave it here and have no more interest to continue.
For me I can’t find anything rational with more that one God, and up to this point that’s the view I’d like to support in my lifetime, may God bless all of us. To tell the truth, looking into different religions, Islam is the one I’d choose. It confirms Jesus Christ as a mighty messenger beside Moses, Abraham, Noah and Adam and above them all it confirms there is only one Almighty God the creator of heavens and the earth. I’m worshipping that God alone and He has blessed me with firming faith in my heart. I wish everyone experience that joy and be set free from all falsehood.
Again thanks for all of your responses and your patience.
Hi Faham. I’m perplexed that you think that I am taking an emotional or contradictory position. I am taking what I am reading in Luke and the other Gospels to inform me of Jesus. The Gospels is widely held as historically reliable and the accounts of Jesus is held to be true.
You say that I mentioned “there are parts of the bible which doesn’t match each other” and I did not make such claims. Not too sure where you got that from.
It is hard to comprehend that God is one, by what Christinas term the Trinity. That is, God is one and existing in three persons – God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit. However, when reading the text, it is clear that is how God is portrayed in the New Testament of the Bible. We can discuss this further if you are interested.
Rereading some of your comments in response to Jamie, you seem to wrestle with the Bible’s concept of forgiveness. It is not true that people can accept Jesus’ forgiveness and then go on sinning without consequence. Actually, if you do that, the Bible warns that may not be a true follower of Jesus (1 John 3:5-10). The call to follow Jesus is just not to be saved from the eternal consequences of sin, but to have him Lord. As we follow Jesus as Lord our desire is to follow his commands.
If your interest does start up again, i look forward to continue our dialogue here. If not, I hope that your journey leads you to realize Jesus is God. Thanks for your comments.