Can You Connect to God Without Religion?
Is there a difference between God and Religion? There is definitely a difference between God and religion. God is someone I have a relationship with. My view on God can be altered by many factors in my life. It can be affected by my relationship with my own father or even by my culture and the people I spend time with.
I see religion is a set of beliefs that have guidelines for behavior associated with them. There are many religions with many differing beliefs and rules. I don’t think God needs religion. He wants to have a relationship with me. It is so easy for me to get confused and think that my relationship with him has rules of engagement. I love knowing that God cares about me and that my relationship with him does not need a lot of order and structure. I want to participate in religion or church to celebrate his holiness, but it’s not a condition of knowing God. Do you believe you can you connect to God without religion?
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“And those morals (God’s) are not absolute. They change as they suit the time.”
No they don’t. God’s absolute moral standards NEVER change. People’s responses and actions pertaining to those moral standards do change based on their own immorality.
“As for divorce it sounds to me as if you are trying to justify spousal abuse. Just like you are trying to justify forcing women to die from giving birth. And that is why people are being drawn away from the church and why I don’t think the Bible is amoral book. Plus this us against them, with us or against us fundamentalist thinking is what starts holy wars or Inquisitions or witch burnings.”
As for divorce, I’m simply stating what God’s view of it is.
As for forcing women to die—come on Seon. You’re sounding silly now.
If people are drawn away from the church there are two main reasons: 1) The unadulterated Word of God is not being preached and so people find none of life’s answers in church, and 2)Where the Word of God is being preached fully, sinful people don’t want to have their sins exposed nor to be told their lifestyle is unpleasing to God. So they leave the church and create a god in their own image—oftentimes that’s evolutionism.
“God also said judge not let ye be judged. Say he does hate divorce, well isn’t that up to us and God?”
I was wondering when you’d quote the most frequently quoted verse in the Bible by non-believers! Too bad everyone who quotes it takes it out of CONTEXT—there’s that word again. The quote is part of the Sermon on the Mount and begins in Matthew 7:1. If you will read the entire quote, you’ll see that Jesus is talking about judging people HYPOCRITICALLY. Jesus is teaching that you should never judge someone else BEFORE you take a close look at yourself to make sure you have no un-confessed sin in your own life. Once you know you’re right with God (removing the plank from your own eye), you will be qualified to “remove the speck from the other fellow’s eye.” The Bible teaches elsewhere that we ARE to judge those who are living in sin. (Galatians 6:1 for example.)
“Yeah but when he taught he taught as a Jew and taught for a Jewish audience. It wasn’t until later he decided to send his disciples to preach among all nations.”
Other than those things which would have been specific to the Jews (such as addressing Pharisees and Sadducees), Jesus taught concepts and truths that pertain to all people in all times.
“While with some gay people (and straight) I am sure they confuse lust with love. But I know very loving gay couples and many children in hetro marriages come from broken homes. I mean look at Hollywierd!”
There are many men I love Seon, but I don’t want to have sex with them. While I’m sure there are homosexual couples that are very loving toward each other, homosexuality is the exception to the rule and therefore not an argument for same-sex marriage.
“As we discussed even these (the Bible’s)morals changed all the time and if you view the entire Bible as 100% literal word of God then you start wars and hate each other. I mean the Bible was used to justify slavery and racism and attacks against gay people. Plus if you do pick and choose from the Bible you had morals before you were a Christian.”
No Seon, the moral standards set down by God have NEVER changed. Yes the Bible records events of slavery, just as it records events of adultery and murder. But the Bible is not justifying those things. Yes, people have taken many scriptures and twisted them to justify their own sinful desires; but that doesn’t make them right about what the scriptures actually teach. When people live by the concepts and morals specifically stated in the Bible, the entire society prospers. To some degree that’s why the U.S. prospered for nearly 200 years. Now that the Bible has become almost taboo, the entire nation is in a moral free-fall.
“I’m happy to admit I don’t know. But I don’t use faith (pretending I have the answers)”
Sure you do. Almost everything you’ve written over all these posts shows you have faith (dare I say “blind” faith) in evolution and humanistic standards of morality. You’re living your life according to those standards which have no basis or foundation; standards which keep changing with the societal landscape.
As for that newly discovered Dinosaur I just wondered if anyone kept it as a pet.
“If that were the case, all four of the gospel writers would have had the same objective—to create a false religion only so they could be persecuted and put to death for it. Why would they do that? And the apostle Paul spent all his years after meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus preaching the same things the gospel writers proclaimed until he, too, had his head cut off for trusting Jesus. Finally, you would have to believe that Jesus was a complete figment of everyone’s imagination. If was a real person, a lot of the facts about him would have been known by a lot of others he knew and no one ever came forward to dispute the gospel writers, even though many would have still been alive.”
How do we know Paul actually existed in the first place? All we have is a bunch of long winded letters.
“How do you know it doesn’t benefit evolution? Don’t we have to wait a hundred thousand years or so before we’d know? And how can you be outraged when you have to have a set standard of right and wrong in order to be outraged?”
The point of the species is to multiply and continue to evolve, right?
“How do you know aborting only female babies doesn’t help evolution? Considering that evolution teaches that life began with a one-celled amoeba or something like that which obviously couldn’t reproduce because there weren’t female and male, maybe the ultimate evolution of man is for everyone to become asexual men? I can guarantee you that gay men would find that quite acceptable!”
Then our species would die out.
“No it can’t because we can’t even observe or reproduce macro-evolution, so we sure can’t show possible ways other scientists could mess up the observations or reproducing of it.”
But if you had evidence for an alternative theory you could put the theory forth. That’s the beauty of science.
“I’m not calling it a theory, but the Bible is a great alternative that matches the evidence precisely. Why not investigate that?”
I have, but if you only believe in one book and ignore the evidence in others you live a sad sheltered existence.
“Let’s start with taking the Ten Commandments literally since they contain everything the Sermon on the Mount and all else Jesus taught.”
A good moral law, it would be hard to argue why we shouldn’t use that moral code for a society.
“I am very familiar with how evolution supposedly works and what evolutionists believe. But please tell me, how does evolution work?”
Well first we don’t believe in anything, we look at the evidence. I’m not a scientist but my understanding is humans and prime apes share the same common ancestor and all life on this planet can be traced back to a single celled organism. I suggest google. And as I said it is a slow process. It’s not like poof a species gives birth to a new species.
“Remember what I said about evidence and worldviews (also called presuppositions.) I’m always fascinated by evolutionists who want creationists to look at the evidence for evolution but refuse to look at the evidence for creation. Why is that?”
Because there’s none? I tried some articles on the site, one talked about dna? Anyway, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.
“Whether it is true or not, and nothing else.”
Exactly and how do you decide if something is true or not?
“In fact he created each “kind” of dinosaur over a two day period—days 5 and 6 of creation.”
Yeah so Bible magic. That answers that. No scientists are needed as the majority are just wrong.
“Such as? (And I say all of the evidence points to a few THOUSAND years.)”
Well for starters the Dinosaur’s lived through three geologic periods. Relative Dating, Radiometric Dating, Absolute dating methods like Fission track, Potassium-argon dating, Argon-argon dating, the fact that no human bones have been found with Dinosaur bones. We can observe objects 18,000,000,000 light years away (so objects that existed 18 billion years ago), not only that but they are no mention of Dinosaurs in Egyptian, Roman, Greek, Sumar history anywhere. Of course you would argue God used bible magic to make it appear like that to test our faith.
“Correct. All but those on the Ark. The sedimentary evidence of the rock layers proves it.”
Of course, all the evidence points to the Dinosaur bones just being a few thousand years old. You know better then those scientists.
“Context, context, context. What is Jesus teaching in these cases? In the first Jesus was teaching that if there is anything you put before following Jesus, you’re going to miss out entirely. In the second, (I think I know which teaching you’re referring to) Jesus is stating that his true spiritual brothers and sisters and “mother” are those who belong to the kingdom of God by repentance and faith. He’s certainly not denying Mary or his family are his physical family. You might recall that on the cross he told John that his mother Mary was not to be John’s mother and he was to be her son. He was leaving provision for his mother.”
Yep the beloved disciple but the passage still clearly states “Anyone who comes before me and doesn’t hate his mother, father and own life can’t be my disciple” that’s just your interpretation of it.
“If you handed me a biography of John Lennon and I asked you to prove he really existed, it would be just as reasonable for you to ask me to prove he DIDN”T exist as for me to prove he DID. But think a little harder on this—You might give me 50 reasons for him having existed, but if I could give you just one IRREFUTABLE reason why he didn’t, then that would prove he didn’t exist. So I ask again—give me even ONE irrefutable reason for the gospels to not be historic.”
Only one? Lack of evidence from contemporary sources?
“He did show himself. He walked with Adam and Eve in the garden, and he showed himself in the pillar of fire and smoke to the nation of Israel. They still disobeyed him and did their own thing.”
Even if he did (snakes never talked) I would still understand my creations existed years after the event and all they had was faith, how were they supposed to know the Israeli thugs terrorizing them worshipped the true god
“You wouldn’t if they ignored your commandments and made gods to suit themselves. People who worship God’s other than the God of the Bible are 100% ignoring the Creator God; they aren’t just worshipping the Creator God in a “different way.” They’re totally snubbing him.”
Ok maybe with false idols but they still love the creator of the universe as sincerely as you do.
When I have kids I would want them to love me. But I wouldn’t want them to love me out of fear (that’s not love) and I would want them to love me in their own way.
““Yep, born in South Africa but brought up in Scotland and moved to Australia in 1988. I still call groceries messages.”
Hadn’t heard that one. I’m one-quarter Scotch-Irish. Guess you were too late to know any of the Bee Gees!”
Yep I’ve been around. I listen to them in the oldies stations.
“Absolute morals are absolute morals and they come from God and are accurately described in the Bible. Remember I wrote that while the godly, moral thing to do is to NOT have slaves, God for that time and purpose ALLOWED people to deny his moral law and to have them. If I were a philosopher I could probably explain that better. ”
And those morals are not absolute. They change as they suit the time.
“To repeat and in other words, absolute morality MUST come from an absolutely moral morals giver. Otherwise, they could change over time. If humans come up with their own morals, they will not be absolute because humans working on their own change their minds about what is right and wrong. So even if man thinks they are doing something moral, it is, in fact, only moral if it is in line with God’s standards of absolute morality. (Sheesh! That was a hard one, and I still don’t think I’m explaining it very well.)”
Which change over time.
As for divorce it sounds to me as if you are trying to justify spousal abuse. Just like you are trying to justify forcing women to die from giving birth. And that is why people are being drawn away from the church and why I don’t think the Bible is amoral book. Plus this us against them, with us or against us fundamentalist thinking is what starts holy wars or Inquisitions or witch burnings.
God also said judge not let ye be judged. Say he does hate divorce, well isn’t that up to us and God?
I like your views (or Jesus’s) on working on the Sabbath too. That is just one example of how man interpreted the laws of Moses.
“Absolutely no customs or man-made traditions have to be followed. (Roman Catholicism is nearly as bad as the OT Pharisees in their requirements of certain “deeds” and traditions in order to be right with God.) However, fasting is something that is taught in the New Testament as a way to show a setting aside of one’s personal desires in order to spend that time focusing on God. It’s a great thing but not a command. You’re right—Jesus’ message was for all mankind. After all, he is God incarnate and so his message is for all creation.”
Yeah but when he taught he taught as a Jew and taught for a Jewish audience. It wasn’t until later he decided to send his disciples to preach among all nations.
“I agree that love is love regardless of who is involved. Unfortunately, man has decided that love and sex are the same things. Sex is a special gift from God for intimacy between a man and a woman (as is obvious from their compatible sex organs), and for procreation. When God said a man and woman would become one, he was referring to the intimacy that only a man and woman can have with each other. As he has done with all good things, Satan has taken the beauty of sexual intimacy and made it an act of pure lust between men and women, men and men, and even people and animals.”
While with some gay people (and straight) I am sure they confuse lust with love. But I know very loving gay couples and many children in hetro marriages come from broken homes. I mean look at Hollywierd!
“We get absolute morals from God and God alone. We read about those morals in the Bible. The morals that may be witnessed in other religious writings are either evolving humanistic morals or morals which are actually godly morals in the first place.”
As we discussed even these morals changed all the time and if you view the entire Bible as 100% literal word of God then you start wars and hate each other. I mean the Bible was used to justify slavery and racism and attacks against gay people. Plus if you do pick and choose from the Bible you had morals before you were a Christian.
““Well not the Bible.”
I agree that your morality does not come from the Bible. Any absolute morals that you have and follow come from God. It just so happens that you can see a description of those morals in the Bible.””
I’m happy to admit I don’t know. But I don’t use faith (pretending I have the answers)
Seon–
Reporting in Nature (in 2009), Chinese paleontologists tell of a fossilized dinosaur that was apparently found surrounded by “dino-fuzz”: filaments the team call “protofeathers.” There is no easy way to confirm or deny the proposition.
The twist is that the dinosaur doesn’t belong to the group (theropods) that scientists claim modern birds evolved from! Thus, instead of interpreting the discovery as supporting dino-bird evolution, the fossil “muddies the waters” of feather origins, according to paleontologist Lawrence Witmer of Ohio University. “Maybe all dinosaurs, even the predominantly scaled ones, had fuzzy parts,” he added.
The Bible doesn’t declare that dinosaurs didn’t have feathers, and assuming none are alive today, there is no easy way to confirm or deny the proposition. Most creationists have been skeptical of “feathered dinosaur” claims for several reasons, since the evidence is circumstantial and tenuous, and this certainly appears to be the case here, with strange filaments assumed to be “protofeathers” because evolutionists presuppose dinosaurs evolved into birds (and that feathers could have easily evolved, despite their complexity and great difference from scales).
Also in the news is a chicken-sized dinosaur that might look like the latest “evidence” that chickens evolved from dinosaurs. Identified by just six small pelvic bones found in Canada, Hesperonychus was a carnivorous raptor that likely fed on insects and perhaps small mammals, amphibians, and perhaps even baby dinosaurs. It also pushes the alleged origin of this type of dinosaur back 45 million years.
And what’s the twist in this story? The fossil has been known for decades, but for 25 years was thought to have belonged to a lizard rather than a dinosaur. Take six bones, add evolutionary dogma and some artistic license, and they’ve got it: more visual proof of dino–bird evolution, despite any evidence of feathers. Even if the drawing were to wind up being close, it would only prove that such an animal existed, was catastrophically buried, and subsequently fossilized—and how is that any different from what a creationist would say?
“In reply to your other post regarding divorce we all sin but that doesn’t mean we deserve to be in abusive relationships. It’s like the Buddhist saying we deserve it because of our karma. Anyway, it’s passages like that and one’s telling us to hate our parents that make me unable to be 100% Christian. I do still believe its one path to God and if it truly makes someone a good person who am I to judge?”
I really don’t understand why you have a problem with the “hating your parents” passage. Jesus isn’t saying you should literally hate your parents. He’s saying that while you should absolutely love your parents, when you sit that love next to the love you should have for God it will give the love for your parents the appearance of hate by comparison.
A person is either 100% Christian or 0% Christian. It’s like, “You can’t be a little pregnant.” And if you’re not a Christian (as in 100%), then you can believe there is only one way to heaven but if you aren’t on that road you won’t get there. Jesus said I am THE way—not one of many ways—and no one comes to the Father except by me. God has already judged that NO ONE is a good person. That’s why they need Christ.
“Exactly, if the gospel writers were Jewish they would know the prophecies and be able to twist their story around them. Remember, the gospel of mark was written 30 years after the alleged events and told to Mark by Peter. How do we know it wasn’t altered to make Jesus appear to have fulfilled the prophecies?”
If that were the case, all four of the gospel writers would have had the same objective—to create a false religion only so they could be persecuted and put to death for it. Why would they do that? And the apostle Paul spent all his years after meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus preaching the same things the gospel writers proclaimed until he, too, had his head cut off for trusting Jesus. Finally, you would have to believe that Jesus was a complete figment of everyone’s imagination. If was a real person, a lot of the facts about him would have been known by a lot of others he knew and no one ever came forward to dispute the gospel writers, even though many would have still been alive.
“But we can still use secular standards to be outraged by (Hitler’s) actions since killing Jews does not benefit evolution.”
How do you know it doesn’t benefit evolution? Don’t we have to wait a hundred thousand years or so before we’d know? And how can you be outraged when you have to have a set standard of right and wrong in order to be outraged?
“So using Nazi Germany as an argument against society choosing it’s morals is incorrect.”
I’m only using it as one of a dozens of possible examples.
“Plus China’s one child policy doesn’t help evolution because it encourages Chinese to abort female babies so they can have a son.”
How do you know aborting only female babies doesn’t help evolution? Considering that evolution teaches that life began with a one-celled amoeba or something like that which obviously couldn’t reproduce because there weren’t female and male, maybe the ultimate evolution of man is for everyone to become asexual men? I can guarantee you that gay men would find that quite acceptable!
“Macro evolution can be falsified- just give scientists evidence of the alternative.”
No it can’t because we can’t even observe or reproduce macro-evolution, so we sure can’t show possible ways other scientists could mess up the observations or reproducing of it.
“Or give an alternative theory that matches the evidence.”
I’m not calling it a theory, but the Bible is a great alternative that matches the evidence precisely. Why not investigate that?
“Well as John Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson The ten commandments and the sermon on the mount contain my religion. (I would add the good Samaritan as well) we can’t begin to understand how much of the Bible God wants us to take literally.”
Let’s start with taking the Ten Commandments literally since they contain everything the Sermon on the Mount and all else Jesus taught.
“That isn’t how evolution works. You really need to do some research at least so you understand. Talk Origins is an excellent start. At least then you would be able to be more accurate when you debate with “evolutionists”
I am very familiar with how evolution supposedly works and what evolutionists believe. But please tell me, how does evolution work?
“I’ll humor myself too. It’s like me telling you to check prison planet for evidence 911 was a inside job lol but google answers in genesis rational wiki if you want to see the other side of the argument.”
Remember what I said about evidence and worldviews (also called presuppositions.) I’m always fascinated by evolutionists who want creationists to look at the evidence for evolution but refuse to look at the evidence for creation. Why is that?
“. . . what do you think makes something true?”
Whether it is true or not, and nothing else.
“But 900 Dinosaurs couldn’t have existed over a thousand year span. I suppose if God magically created them they could have . . .”
In fact he created each “kind” of dinosaur over a two day period—days 5 and 6 of creation.
“ but all of the evidence points to at least a few million years.”
Such as? (And I say all of the evidence points to a few THOUSAND years.)
“ And maybe the flood was what wiped out the Dinosaur’s. “
Correct. All but those on the Ark. The sedimentary evidence of the rock layers proves it.
“What about when the disciples father had just died and he told him “let the dead burry the dead” plus he snubbed Mary and her family.”
Context, context, context. What is Jesus teaching in these cases? In the first Jesus was teaching that if there is anything you put before following Jesus, you’re going to miss out entirely. In the second, (I think I know which teaching you’re referring to) Jesus is stating that his true spiritual brothers and sisters and “mother” are those who belong to the kingdom of God by repentance and faith. He’s certainly not denying Mary or his family are his physical family. You might recall that on the cross he told John that his mother Mary was not to be John’s mother and he was to be her son. He was leaving provision for his mother.
“It’s the other way round- google burden of proof. Plus they are no reasons to believe the gospels are historic.”
If you handed me a biography of John Lennon and I asked you to prove he really existed, it would be just as reasonable for you to ask me to prove he DIDN”T exist as for me to prove he DID. But think a little harder on this—You might give me 50 reasons for him having existed, but if I could give you just one IRREFUTABLE reason why he didn’t, then that would prove he didn’t exist. So I ask again—give me even ONE irrefutable reason for the gospels to not be historic.
“Well I would be hurt but I loved those beings and would just show myself.”
He did show himself. He walked with Adam and Eve in the garden, and he showed himself in the pillar of fire and smoke to the nation of Israel. They still disobeyed him and did their own thing.
“Plus I would understand if my other creations with limited understanding of me worshipped me and loved me in a different way.”
You wouldn’t if they ignored your commandments and made gods to suit themselves. People who worship God’s other than the God of the Bible are 100% ignoring the Creator God; they aren’t just worshipping the Creator God in a “different way.” They’re totally snubbing him.
“Yep, born in South Africa but brought up in Scotland and moved to Australia in 1988. I still call groceries messages.”
Hadn’t heard that one. I’m one-quarter Scotch-Irish. Guess you were too late to know any of the Bee Gees!
In reply to your other post regarding divorce we all sin but that doesn’t mean we deserve to be in abusive relationships. It’s like the Buddhist saying we deserve it because of our karma. Anyway, it’s passages like that and one’s telling us to hate our parents that make me unable to be 100% Christian. I do still believe its one path to God and if it truly makes someone a good person who am I to judge?
Exactly, if the gospel writers were Jewish they would know the prophecies and be able to twist their story around them. Remember, the gospel of mark was written 30 years after the alleged events and told to Mark by Peter. How do we know it wasn’t altered to make Jesus appear to have fulfilled the prophecies?
“he didn’t do what he did because of his unbelief in any gods.”
A Christian is a born again believer in Jesus Christ and cannot become an “unborn” believer. No evidence whatsoever would indicate that Hitler was an actual Christian. If he had been a Christian, he would have not only known and believed what he was doing was wrong, but the Holy Spirit would not have allowed him to carry out such plans. Because he was not a believer, he had no absolute moral standard by which to gauge his actions and therefore did what he thought was the best thing for evolution and humanism.””
Whether or not Hitler wasn’t a Christian doesn’t change the fact the church never ex communicated him (Catholics are Christian) and the church used religion to advance the Nazi’s agenda. The Jews killed Jesus is a common excuse to hate the Jews. So blaming humanism for the Nazi’s would be incorrect. But we can still use secular standards to be outraged by his actions since killing Jews does not benefit evolution. So using Nazi Germany as an argument against society choosing it’s morals is incorrect. Plus China’s one child policy doesn’t help evolution because it encourages Chinese to abort female babies so they can have a son.
Macro evolution can be falsified- just give scientists evidence of the alternative. Or give an alternative theory that matches the evidence.
““But how do we know that passage was meant for Israel when others Christians cite from the Old testament are used to justify their views today?! It’s confusing.”
That’s why as one of my Bible teachers used to say, “Context is everything.” On the one hand the Bible was written so that people could understand the basics of the mind of God and his plan throughout eternity. But because the Bible comes from the infinite mind of God, it can never be completely understood. Biblical scholars spend years studying the scriptures and keep right on discovering new things about it. While each verse or passage has only one meaning, there are an infinite number of applications for scriptures. It truly is an incredible book.”
Well as John Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson (and I am writing to you in the 21st century using modern technology created by man, not God) The ten commandments and the sermon on the mount contain my religion. (I would add the good Samaritan as well) we can’t begin to understand how much of the Bible God wants us to take literally.
““Fair enough, so on the 7th day he just sat back and put his feet up. But why expect humans to do that?”
Because he knew humans tend to work themselves to death! The seventh day as a rest day is a gift from God. Jesus talked about that. He said, “Man wasn’t made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man.” Once man fell from grace in the Garden of Eden and was destined to die physically, God graciously commanded that he should at least take one day a week to kick back from his tedious work and spend some time with his Maker. In the U.S. we had “blue laws” up until the 80’s or so where local ordinances prohibited businesses from opening on Sunday. Of course in the pursuit of the almighty dollar, that finally went by the wayside.”
Yep one business decides to open then everyone has to open. Yeah when you put it that way he wanted to chill out and relax. He wasn’t too tired.
“Typically we’re talking about “observational science.” That’s the science that observes the universe and tries to figure out how it works. So that’s why macro-evolution isn’t observational science—we don’t observe it. Yes, we breed many types of dogs and pigeons—but have we ever observed a dog giving birth to a half-dog and half-pigeon? Has a pigeon every produced a pit bull? God said that every kind would reproduce after its own kind, and that’s exactly what we observe. Changes within species, different kinds of felines, canines, etc., are examples of natural selection and interbreeding—MICRO-evolution—not kind-to-kind MACO-evolution.”
That isn’t how evolution works. You really need to do some research at least so you understand. Talk Origins is an excellent start. At least then you would be able to be more accurate when you debate with “evolutionists”
“We have a great deal of evidence for a young earth, and we’re finding more all the time. Let your guard down for a few minutes and just check out some of that evidence at Answers In Genesis. Humor me!”
I’ll humor myself too. It’s like me telling you to check prison planet for evidence 911 was a inside job lol but google answers in genesis rational wiki if you want to see the other side of the argument. Humor me.
““ Most Christians accept the evidence that the Earth is older then 10,000 years.”
I’m not actually sure what the percentage is. Unfortunately, many ignorant Christians bought into the evolution theory without carefully considering the evidence. And anyway, just because a lot of people believe something, that doesn’t make it true, does it? (E.g., the flat earth belief before Columbus.)”
Nope what do you think makes something true?
“Well, we didn’t have to have every species of dinosaur on the Ark anymore than we needed every species of feline. Two of each “kind” were all that was necessary. There only needed to be two felines—two cats of some type—to over the last few thousand years produce all the different species of cats via interbreeding, natural selection, and survival of the fittest in any given environment. Oh, and did you know that the average size of a dinosaur was about the size of a sheep? As for the really big dinosaurs, Noah would only have had to take a pair of relatively small adolescent ones aboard in order to continue the kind. What happened to most of the dinosaurs? The changes in the earth’s climate and vegetation after the flood caused most of them to die off. We still have some of the smaller dinosaurs with us today.””
But 900 Dinosaurs couldn’t have existed over a thousand year span. I suppose if God magically created them they could have but all of the evidence points to at least a few million years. And maybe the flood was what wiped out the Dinosaur’s.
“Jesus spoke in a lot of absolutes. I guess that goes along with moral absolutes, etc. But since Jesus absolutely taught we should honor our parents and love everyone, the only reasonable explanation for his comments about hating parents is simply a dramatic comparison for the love we are to show God.””
What about when the disciples father had just died and he told him “let the dead burry the dead” plus he snubbed Mary and her family.
““But we can’t be sure the gospels are 100% true.”
Unless there is some good reason to believe something ISN”T true, then it’s not all that hard to believe they ARE true, right?”
It’s the other way round- google burden of proof. Plus they are no reasons to believe the gospels are historic.
““I wish it was that easy. But we have the problem of the angry Old testament God.”
Suppose you created your own world and peopled it those you loved and only asked for their love in return. Then suppose they ignored you, slandered you, loved other false “creators,” and broke all the basic guidelines you knew were the best for them to follow. How would that make YOU feel?”
Well I would be hurt but I loved those beings and would just show myself. Plus I would understand if my other creations with limited understanding of me worshipped me and loved me in a different way. As long as they were sincere and loved me I wouldn’t reject them.
“You keep asking the questions (maybe a few less at a time? Lol) and I’ll keep trying to give biblical answers. By the way—are you from the British Isles? I’ve noticed a couple of what I thought to be English terms in your posts.”
Yep, born in South Africa but brought up in Scotland and moved to Australia in 1988. I still call groceries messages.
I will check out answersingenisis when I need a laugh during my lunch break.
“So since most people accept slavery IS immoral we obviously don’t get those morals from the Bible. Or maybe it was just men claiming God commanded them to keep slaves? Just because the Bible reports it doesn’t mean God approves.”
Absolute morals are absolute morals and they come from God and are accurately described in the Bible. Remember I wrote that while the godly, moral thing to do is to NOT have slaves, God for that time and purpose ALLOWED people to deny his moral law and to have them. If I were a philosopher I could probably explain that better.
To repeat and in other words, absolute morality MUST come from an absolutely moral morals giver. Otherwise, they could change over time. If humans come up with their own morals, they will not be absolute because humans working on their own change their minds about what is right and wrong. So even if man thinks they are doing something moral, it is, in fact, only moral if it is in line with God’s standards of absolute morality. (Sheesh! That was a hard one, and I still don’t think I’m explaining it very well.)
“Yes and there is modern day slavery. Human trafficking and companies forcing kids to work for pennies on the hour.”
We can tell from Jesus’ teachings that he isn’t pleased with it either.
“No Seon, we don’t consider those passages immoral if we understand the context of what was going on. But yes, the actions of the people were immoral. Remember, God’s absolute standard of morality NEVER CHANGES. Man’s standards of morality do change; so in that sense you’re right—people thought slavery was alright back then and for the most part they no longer do. However, there are still many people groups in the world today that justify horrific slavery, both sexual and otherwise. Every pimp believes in slavery, don’t they? And that shows why we need God’s perfect standard; for without it, there is no standard.”
So since most people accept slavery IS immoral we obviously don’t get those morals from the Bible. Or maybe it was just men claiming God commanded them to keep slaves? Just because the Bible reports it doesn’t mean God approves.
Yes and there is modern day slavery. Human trafficking and companies forcing kids to work for pennies on the hour.
Hey Tom, google “Fossil from new dinosaur dubbed ‘fluffy feathered poodle from hell’ discovered in China” when I read the article I thought of you. Do you think humans once kept this creature as pets? Obviously the scientists who thought Dinosaurs existed for millions of years are in on the conspiracy.
“What exact prophecies? If they were that many I would be inclined to agree with you but I only remember reading a few passages saying “This was to fulfil the prophecy” but many are vague.”
Matthew wrote his gospel to the Jews and since the Jews were always looking at prophecy, Matthew’s gospel is loaded with prophecies of the Messiah that were fulfilled by Jesus. Do a web search on “Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by Jesus” for a pretty extensive list. Granted some are vague while others are so obvious you can’t miss them. But overall there are more than 100 that perfectly fit Jesus alone.
“As for divorce yes but your passages prove that the Bible says divorced women can’t re marry. That is the problem.”
In Genesis we read, “The man said, “This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.” For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.” When a man and a woman come together intimately, God no longer views them as two individuals—he sees them as one person. That’s because he made man and woman specifically for each other. In discussing marriage in Mark 10:9 Jesus said, “Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
We’ve made such a mockery of marriage and taken it so lightly that we think nothing of divorce. But in God’s economy, that’s like splitting a person down the middle. So the only reason Jesus gave for divorce was marital infidelity, and that’s because of the grotesqueness of bringing together the two made into one with another one. It’s even hard to describe! So until the original spouse has died which formally nullifies the marriage relationship, the divorced man or woman is still married in God’s eyes. Having sex with another would be adultery.
“Well I hope this God guy can steer me to the “right” understanding of the Bible, whatever that is.”
He will if you approach him with a willing and open heart.
he didn’t do what he did because of his unbelief in any gods.”
A Christian is a born again believer in Jesus Christ and cannot become an “unborn” believer. No evidence whatsoever would indicate that Hitler was an actual Christian. If he had been a Christian, he would have not only known and believed what he was doing was wrong, but the Holy Spirit would not have allowed him to carry out such plans. Because he was not a believer, he had no absolute moral standard by which to gauge his actions and therefore did what he thought was the best thing for evolution and humanism.”
“Evolutionism (whatever that is) is science, it does not have a set of beliefs, a church or a holy book. It can be proven wrong at any minute- just prove your theory.”
Macro-evolution isn’t scientific because it can’t be observed, can’t be replicated, and can’t be falsified (that’s when you give in your scientific findings reasons that your findings are accurate and how they could be falsified by others.) Therefore, since evolution isn’t scientific, if you subscribe to it you are actually only “believing” in it which makes it a religion. The term is then “evolutionism” as an “-ism” is a belief in something.
“But how do we know that passage was meant for Israel when others Christians cite from the Old testament are used to justify their views today?! It’s confusing.”
That’s why as one of my Bible teachers used to say, “Context is everything.” On the one hand the Bible was written so that people could understand the basics of the mind of God and his plan throughout eternity. But because the Bible comes from the infinite mind of God, it can never be completely understood. Biblical scholars spend years studying the scriptures and keep right on discovering new things about it. While each verse or passage has only one meaning, there are an infinite number of applications for scriptures. It truly is an incredible book.
“Fair enough, so on the 7th day he just sat back and put his feet up. But why expect humans to do that?”
Because he knew humans tend to work themselves to death! The seventh day as a rest day is a gift from God. Jesus talked about that. He said, “Man wasn’t made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man.” Once man fell from grace in the Garden of Eden and was destined to die physically, God graciously commanded that he should at least take one day a week to kick back from his tedious work and spend some time with his Maker. In the U.S. we had “blue laws” up until the 80’s or so where local ordinances prohibited businesses from opening on Sunday. Of course in the pursuit of the almighty dollar, that finally went by the wayside.
“Just because we can’t observe it doesn’t mean it isn’t science. We see many cases of different types of dogs or pigeons being bread. The fossil evidence backs up the claim. But anyway, with science you don’t “believe” you examine the evidence.”
Typically we’re talking about “observational science.” That’s the science that observes the universe and tries to figure out how it works. So that’s why macro-evolution isn’t observational science—we don’t observe it. Yes, we breed many types of dogs and pigeons—but have we ever observed a dog giving birth to a half-dog and half-pigeon? Has a pigeon every produced a pit bull? God said that every kind would reproduce after its own kind, and that’s exactly what we observe. Changes within species, different kinds of felines, canines, etc., are examples of natural selection and interbreeding—MICRO-evolution—not kind-to-kind MACO-evolution.
“I’ll use your standards then. Thou shalt not lie.”
We have a great deal of evidence for a young earth, and we’re finding more all the time. Let your guard down for a few minutes and just check out some of that evidence at Answers In Genesis. Humor me!
“ Most Christians accept the evidence that the Earth is older then 10,000 years.”
I’m not actually sure what the percentage is. Unfortunately, many ignorant Christians bought into the evolution theory without carefully considering the evidence. And anyway, just because a lot of people believe something, that doesn’t make it true, does it? (E.g., the flat earth belief before Columbus.)
“Plus you never explained how the 900 different species of Dinosaurs could have all existed in a few thousand years.”
Well, we didn’t have to have every species of dinosaur on the Ark anymore than we needed every species of feline. Two of each “kind” were all that was necessary. There only needed to be two felines—two cats of some type—to over the last few thousand years produce all the different species of cats via interbreeding, natural selection, and survival of the fittest in any given environment. Oh, and did you know that the average size of a dinosaur was about the size of a sheep? As for the really big dinosaurs, Noah would only have had to take a pair of relatively small adolescent ones aboard in order to continue the kind. What happened to most of the dinosaurs? The changes in the earth’s climate and vegetation after the flood caused most of them to die off. We still have some of the smaller dinosaurs with us today.
“That’s ok but the passage still says hate your parents. Your just interpreting it to make it sound less hostile.
Jesus spoke in a lot of absolutes. I guess that goes along with moral absolutes, etc. But since Jesus absolutely taught we should honor our parents and love everyone, the only reasonable explanation for his comments about hating parents is simply a dramatic comparison for the love we are to show God.
“But we can’t be sure the gospels are 100% true.”
Unless there is some good reason to believe something ISN”T true, then it’s not all that hard to believe they ARE true, right?
“I wish it was that easy. But we have the problem of the angry Old testament God.”
Suppose you created your own world and peopled it those you loved and only asked for their love in return. Then suppose they ignored you, slandered you, loved other false “creators,” and broke all the basic guidelines you knew were the best for them to follow. How would that make YOU feel?
“Yeah I agree it takes about 90 minutes to reply but these questions have been nagging at me for years and I’ve always wanted to discuss them with a sincere Christian. What evidence is there for creation? What if you were wrong and the universe was created by another god? Aren’t you making him madder every time you go to church? Remember Muslims would sincerely believe their God was the one true God.”
You keep asking the questions (maybe a few less at a time? Lol) and I’ll keep trying to give biblical answers. By the way—are you from the British Isles? I’ve noticed a couple of what I thought to be English terms in your posts.
“But she did nothing wrong, all she did was try to escape an abusive marriage. Why should she not be allowed to move on?”
Because that is not God’s intent for marriage.
Let’s look behind the scenes: If each person in the marriage was actively seeking the will of God and living their life by biblical standards, the husband wouldn’t be abusive in the first place. Also, while we think of the woman as faultless, she has her own basket of sin against a holy God as well. Those sins might be directly toward her husband, but what I’m saying is that she isn’t “innocent.” People like to think their sin (disobedience to God) only affects themselves, but that’s just not the case. Every sin has fallout, not only for the perpetrator but others. We live in a sin-sick world where very little goes the way God intended.
“I don’t think divorce is a sin but are people really sincere if they sin and quickly ask forgiveness only to know they are going to sin the next day?”
God says he hates divorce. (Malachi 2:16).
Knowing one has a sin nature and will sin again in the heat of the moment is different than willfully disobeying God time after time. For the child of God, all sins are forgiven by Jesus on the Cross; but if a professing Christian continues to willfully sin, that’s evidence they are not really a Christian at all and are still under God’s wrath.
“Or if Jesus still follows it, like when he healed on the Sabbath?“
While the Pharisees had added all sorts of finite (and man-made) laws to God’s Ten Commandments, Jesus showed them that they were being hypocritical in their practices. One of those was demanding people couldn’t even cook or pick a kernel of wheat or walk more than a certain distance from home on the Sabbath because that would constitute “working”. But Jesus explained that the Sabbath was a gift from God for a person to have a day to relax from their 6-days of work and to focus time on Him. However, it was never God’s intention that a person couldn’t do noble or good things on the Sabbath, and he showed them by healing on that day. Those things show a love for God and fellow man.
“Do we have to follow the Jewish customs like fasting? He taught for a Jewish audience but his message of love can be applied to everyone.”
Absolutely no customs or man-made traditions have to be followed. (Roman Catholicism is nearly as bad as the OT Pharisees in their requirements of certain “deeds” and traditions in order to be right with God.) However, fasting is something that is taught in the New Testament as a way to show a setting aside of one’s personal desires in order to spend that time focusing on God. It’s a great thing but not a command. You’re right—Jesus’ message was for all mankind. After all, he is God incarnate and so his message is for all creation.
“Well then I would argue that God’s standards say gay couples were always ok- love is love. All children need is to be brought up in a loving home.”
I agree that love is love regardless of who is involved. Unfortunately, man has decided that love and sex are the same things. Sex is a special gift from God for intimacy between a man and a woman (as is obvious from their compatible sex organs), and for procreation. When God said a man and woman would become one, he was referring to the intimacy that only a man and woman can have with each other. As he has done with all good things, Satan has taken the beauty of sexual intimacy and made it an act of pure lust between men and women, men and men, and even people and animals.
I agree that children need a loving home; but God ordained that home to consist of a man and a woman as the father and mother in the home. There are undeniable statistics that show that children raised in a same-sex parent home have greatly increased risks of all sorts of psychological problems. That is not a loving environment.
“Well we don’t get those morals from the Bible. Maybe loving each other, forgiveness do not kill etc but those morals can be found in most religions.”
We get absolute morals from God and God alone. We read about those morals in the Bible. The morals that may be witnessed in other religious writings are either evolving humanistic morals or morals which are actually godly morals in the first place.
“Well not the Bible.”
I agree that your morality does not come from the Bible. Any absolute morals that you have and follow come from God. It just so happens that you can see a description of those morals in the Bible.
“BUT you admit by any other standards that would be considered slavery, right? And societies morals have (dare I say it) evolved and we now consider those passages immoral. Would you like to marry the Islamic State terrorist who killed your brother and parents in the name of their God? That’s how the virgins would feel.”
No Seon, we don’t consider those passages immoral if we understand the context of what was going on. But yes, the actions of the people were immoral. Remember, God’s absolute standard of morality NEVER CHANGES. Man’s standards of morality do change; so in that sense you’re right—people thought slavery was alright back then and for the most part they no longer do. However, there are still many people groups in the world today that justify horrific slavery, both sexual and otherwise. Every pimp believes in slavery, don’t they? And that shows why we need God’s perfect standard; for without it, there is no standard.
Actually I will reply to the long comment tomorrow but I did manage to reply to a few of your posts tonight.
I’ll reply to your last two posts later tonight Tom. Hope everyone reading this is well.
“Going by what Jesus taught, while the woman need not stay with the abusive husband, divorce is not an option in God’s economy. If the woman does divorce, she should not remarry. If she divorces and remarries she and her new husband will be committing adultery. Will God destroy her? I doubt it. God is merciful to sinners or we’d all be toast. Will she be denied some blessings? I would say yes although she may never know what they were.”
But she did nothing wrong, all she did was try to escape an abusive marriage. Why should she not be allowed to move on?
“I agree. Unfortunately, way too many Christians intentionally do many things to disobey God. As above, I have no doubt they will forfeit some blessings, but they are in the hands of a merciful God.”
I don’t think divorce is a sin but are people really sincere if they sin and quickly ask forgiveness only to know they are going to sin the next day?
“Typically you can tell by the context. Each passage should be examined carefully to determine. However, the basic principles typically apply to all generations and all people.”
Or if Jesus still follows it, like when he healed on the Sabbath?
“Yes, I’m aware of that. However, since the Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah, God opened the opportunity of salvation to all mankind through repentance and trust in the Lord Jesus. This is God’s grace in action.”
Do we have to follow the Jewish customs like fasting? He taught for a Jewish audience but his message of love can be applied to everyone.
“Much of what you state is correct and verifies what I’m been saying all along. God’s rules of logic do not change and are objective. Man’s rules of logic change over time in various situations and over time and are therefore subjective. Without God, there would be no absolute standard for rules of logic. Since there are rules of logic, that proves God exists. It’s not faith that the standard, it is God who is the standard.”
Well then I would argue that God’s standards say gay couples were always ok- love is love. All children need is to be brought up in a loving home.
“But in a humanistic society, rules of logical and reason would have just “evolved” over millions of years and therefore would have no absoluteness to them. Because we know they do not change, that proves they did not evolve—they had to have been determined by God who never changes.”
Well we don’t get those morals from the Bible. Maybe loving each other, forgiveness do not kill etc but those morals can be found in most religions.
““Plus being moral out of fear of hell or to please some deity is not really being moral.”
God’s standard of morality doesn’t change regardless of why a person may be moral. But without God, no one would know what the unchanging standards of morality are.”
But which God? They are morals found in all religions and philosophy’s. (although I do prefer love, forgiveness and serving God)
““I’m moral out of compassion and because I want to make the world a better place.”
It’s great that you want to improve the world, but your knowledge of what is moral still comes from God.”
Well not the Bible.
“I do think about that and stand in awe of the Almighty Creator. (As a side note, I think that’s another reason abortion is so terrible. God creates and knows each human life from conception, and yet man often decides that life isn’t worth existence.”
Or did God know us before we were attached to our mothers womb? Anyway I still think abortion can be justified like if the mother’s life is at risk.
“Very true. I would suggest though that the best thing we can do is to lead them to repent of their sins and trust in Jesus Christ. That way they will never have to stand before God to be judged for their sins.”
If you lead by example like you are doing now you will be successful.
“”Look at it this way—the Midianites like so many other people groups in those days were absolutely heinous and hideous God-haters who would cut your throat as quick as talking to you. And while God usually just had them all wiped out (like you’d remove a cancer) at times he would because of his mercy and for his own reasons, allow some of the people to live. In this case it was the “innocent” virgins. Now if you were one of those virgins, what would be your preference—death or servitude? Actually, we don’t know for sure if they just became servants. Many probably married the Hebrews and lived happily ever after! I think God was doing them a real favor out of mercy by letting them live, don’t you?”
BUT you admit by any other standards that would be considered slavery, right? And societies morals have (dare I say it) evolved and we now consider those passages immoral. Would you like to marry the Islamic State terrorist who killed your brother and parents in the name of their God? That’s how the virgins would feel.
“are you saying the virgins who were captured by Israel soldiers voluntary servants? because God clearly commands them to take captives. And isn’t that a Biblical contradiction?”
Look at it this way—the Midianites like so many other people groups in those days were absolutely heinous and hideous God-haters who would cut your throat as quick as talking to you. And while God usually just had them all wiped out (like you’d remove a cancer) at times he would because of his mercy and for his own reasons, allow some of the people to live. In this case it was the “innocent” virgins. Now if you were one of those virgins, what would be your preference—death or servitude? Actually, we don’t know for sure if they just became servants. Many probably married the Hebrews and lived happily ever after! I think God was doing them a real favor out of mercy by letting them live, don’t you?
“I still believe we are already connected to God when we are born “Before you were born, I knew you” think about that. Before you were born…”
I do think about that and stand in awe of the Almighty Creator. (As a side note, I think that’s another reason abortion is so terrible. God creates and knows each human life from conception, and yet man often decides that life isn’t worth existence.
“Christians should also realize that in the end God will judge us, many gays and “sinners” just don’t believe God exists and the best we can do is show them compassion in this life and if God will judge them he will also judge us for the way we treated others.”
Very true. I would suggest though that the best thing we can do is to lead them to repent of their sins and trust in Jesus Christ. That way they will never have to stand before God to be judged for their sins.
“So do you believe if a woman is in an abusive relationship with a controlling husband and files for divorce she does she shouldn’t be allowed to marry if she finds true love?”
Going by what Jesus taught, while the woman need not stay with the abusive husband, divorce is not an option in God’s economy. If the woman does divorce, she should not remarry. If she divorces and remarries she and her new husband will be committing adultery. Will God destroy her? I doubt it. God is merciful to sinners or we’d all be toast. Will she be denied some blessings? I would say yes although she may never know what they were.
“That’s an example of how most Christians change their morals. Most would disagree.”
I agree. Unfortunately, way too many Christians intentionally do many things to disobey God. As above, I have no doubt they will forfeit some blessings, but they are in the hands of a merciful God.
“How do we know which passages in the Old Testament were for the Jewish nation only?”
Typically you can tell by the context. Each passage should be examined carefully to determine. However, the basic principles typically apply to all generations and all people.
“Did you know Jesus only taught to Jews and it wasn’t until after his resurrection he said “Go out and preach to all nations”?
Yes, I’m aware of that. However, since the Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah, God opened the opportunity of salvation to all mankind through repentance and trust in the Lord Jesus. This is God’s grace in action.
“As for your gay couples example, logic and reason are always objective. It’s just sometimes society can get it wrong. They might use their own standards to come to what they believe is a reasonable decision but they can still be wrong and using faith as a standard is not logical.”
Much of what you state is correct and verifies what I’m been saying all along. God’s rules of logic do not change and are objective. Man’s rules of logic change over time in various situations and over time and are therefore subjective. Without God, there would be no absolute standard for rules of logic. Since there are rules of logic, that proves God exists. It’s not faith that the standard, it is God who is the standard.
I do see the point you are trying to make and it is one made by many theists but I would argue that logic and reason are always right and unchanging. What was logical back then is still logical now, we just weren’t a society based on logic and reason.”
But in a humanistic society, rules of logical and reason would have just “evolved” over millions of years and therefore would have no absoluteness to them. Because we know they do not change, that proves they did not evolve—they had to have been determined by God who never changes.
“Plus being moral out of fear of hell or to please some deity is not really being moral.”
God’s standard of morality doesn’t change regardless of why a person may be moral. But without God, no one would know what the unchanging standards of morality are.
“I’m moral out of compassion and because I want to make the world a better place.”
It’s great that you want to improve the world, but your knowledge of what is moral still comes from God.
Hey Tom thanks for clarifying slavery. Exodus 21:16 is a wake up call but are you saying the virgins who were captured by Israel soldiers voluntary servants? because God clearly commands them to take captives. And isn’t that a Biblical contradiction?
“ “As for prophecies on Jesus anyone could make up a story around made up prophecies about a messiah.”
Remember that dozens of specific prophecies about Jesus were made hundreds, and in some cases thousands, of years before he was born. A number of those prophecies even a person who wanted to personally try to fulfill wouldn’t be able to. Prophecies such as where he would be born, from what tribe of Israel, events concerning his childhood, the attempts to kill him shortly after his birth, the amount of money he would be betrayed for, how he would die (it was prophesied he would die by crucifixion centuries before the Romans invented that method of execution.) The list is very long.”
What exact prophecies? If they were that many I would be inclined to agree with you but I only remember reading a few passages saying “This was to fulfil the prophecy” but many are vague.
As for divorce yes but your passages prove that the Bible says divorced women can’t re marry. That is the problem.
““So I can only interpret a book correctly if I believe the main character exists?”
Not exactly; but to make a sad attempt at an analogy, who knows more about my wife—the guy living on the next street who has never met her but has read her biography, or me, the one who has lived with her for 40 years? However John in his gospel account tells us, “. . . these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” (John 20:31). Much of the Bible can be understood by the unbeliever; but only a believer can begin to understand the complete picture.”
Well I hope this God guy can steer me to the “right” understanding of the Bible, whatever that is.
““Which humanists believed murdering unborn babies were wrong? What did humanism teach at the time?”
Granted I’m making a minor assumption, but considering that only 15-25% of Americans were professing to be born-again Christians during the 1800’s and 1900’s, that means 75-85% were unbelievers (humanists) who were following God’s absolute standards of morality and therefore respectful of an unborn baby’s life because abortion was a major offense.”
Not necessary, did you look at other religions? Like Mormonism, Deism (more of a philosophy), Catholicism? They all use moral absolutes as well.
“ “No humans have free will. I’m saying Hitler was a Christian, at least in the beginning and even if he was an atheist he didn’t do what he did because of his unbelief in any gods.”
A Christian is a born again believer in Jesus Christ and cannot become an “unborn” believer. No evidence whatsoever would indicate that Hitler was an actual Christian. If he had been a Christian, he would have not only known and believed what he was doing was wrong, but the Holy Spirit would not have allowed him to carry out such plans. Because he was not a believer, he had no absolute moral standard by which to gauge his actions and therefore did what he thought was the best thing for evolution and humanism.”
The no true Scotsman fallacy. At least I admit when atheists like Stalin and Mao committed atrocities. Hitler was baptized as a Roman catholic and never ex communicated, he was an alter boy, a confirmed “Soldier of Christ” as a young man, “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
“The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.” Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party, he used the church to advance his agenda, Outlawed abortion, persecuted homosexuals and promised “The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.” –Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda “Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.” -Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism
So at least in the 1930’s he was motivated by religion. My point is using figures like Hitler or Stalin (Stalin would have made more sense) to show the dangers of a society that is moral to benefit society is flawed.
“That’s good thinking on your part Seon. When it comes right down to it, the vast majority of women have abortions for their own selfish reasons. “It would interfere with my life; it would be an inconvenience; why should I suffer for nine months when I can just be done with it; I’m not ready to raise a kid”: the list is long but in almost every case you can find a sinful, selfish attitude at the root. My wife had an abortion before I knew her; her reasons were fear, confusion (she couldn’t reach the father who was deployed in the military), and her mother’s concerns about what others would think brought pressure from her mom to abort.”
But she could have had the baby and given it up, so yeah the liberal side of me wants to say it is still the woman’s choice but if there is an alternative to abortion to hell with what people think. I suppose back in that time society wasn’t as dare I say liberal as it was today. Today people wouldn’t be so harsh.
““Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.”
Thanks for clarifying that Seon. I had been reading only verse 31:14. Let me try a short response: Breaking God’s rest day was defined by Him as a capital crime (along with the other items you’ve previously listed) among His chosen people, and this at least shows all people how vital its observance is to Him. As far as Israel was concerned, it was to be observed perpetually. Since its use long antedates the calling of Israel, it should actually be regarded as a perpetual reminder to all people of the preeminent importance God placed on the fact of His completed work of creation, and His abhorrence of any religion (e.g., evolutionism) or any practice which denied or trivialized this foundational doctrine. In reality, God’s covenant people, the Jews, are still under this directive today, but biblical and secular history shows they have always pretty much ignored what God wanted (as do most everyone else!) “
Evolutionism (whatever that is) is science, it does not have a set of beliefs, a church or a holy book. It can be proven wrong at any minute- just prove your theory.
But how do we know that passage was meant for Israel when others Christians cite from the Old testament are used to justify their views today?! It’s confusing.
““By the way a question arises. If God is all powerful and created the Earth in 7 days: Why did he have to rest? Isn’t he ALL POWERFUL”
That’s a question I had for a long time too. Translating any language into another always has its limits. Some translations do a better job by using the word “cease”. Let me use Webster’s definition: “A period or occasion of inactivity.” It wasn’t that God was tired, it was simply that he stopped the work of creating. We use the term “arrest” to describe stopping someone from doing something, not taking a nap.”
Fair enough, so on the 7th day he just sat back and put his feet up. But why expect humans to do that?
“Ah I see you don’t understand science. You don’t “Believe” in evolution, you accept the evidence. Belief is religion.”
Actually I do understand science. I love science. But macro-evolution, one kind slowly changing into another kind, IS a belief/religion. It is not scientific because in order to be scientific, it must be observable, replicatable, and falsifiable. Macro-evolution is only a theory—a hypothesis—not a scientific fact regardless of how many evolutionists want to say it is.”
Just because we can’t observe it doesn’t mean it isn’t science. We see many cases of different types of dogs or pigeons being bread. The fossil evidence backs up the claim. But anyway, with science you don’t “believe” you examine the evidence.
““Nope, it’s because they teach their children that lie and the lie continues. It troubles me because this is the 21st century, the age of science and reason and they are still young Earth creationists.”
I don’t agree with you that it is lying to children to teach creation (and I believe the lies about evolution are what really are destroying our children). But supposing it was lying, why would someone who has no absolutes for morality or right and wrong know that lying is bad? I do wish you could see the fallacy of your “moral” arguments. You have no moral leg to stand on. You admitted that yourself.”
I’ll use your standards then. Thou shalt not lie. Most Christians accept the evidence that the Earth is older then 10,000 years. Plus you never explained how the 900 different species of Dinosaurs could have all existed in a few thousand years.
““Where did you get that from “I can’t hate my parents like Jesus wants?” I love my parents and know for sure they exist. Even if I had faith part of me would always doubt it.”
Sorry, but if you re-read your post, I quoted you exactly. Obviously that’s not what you meant.”
That’s ok but the passage still says hate your parents. Your just interpreting it to make it sound less hostile.
““I would like to know how do we know the Bible was written by people who Christians claim (Peter to Mark, Matthew, Luke and John the disciple at 90), how do we know the gospels are true when the earliest copy we have comes from a few centuries after Jesus alleged death? . . . . “
I had asked what it would take for you believe, but I don’t think you’ve given a completely honest answer. I’ve answered these same types of questions to atheists and agnostics many times and they simply move on to another long list of questions. So what would it REALLY take to convince you?”
I am being honest. I read the gospels and clearly if they accurately portray history Jesus claimed to be God (he forgave sins with authority, said he and God were one, was angry with the money changers etc) and proved this when he rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples. If they existed they wouldn’t have made it up. For starters they were depressed, their messiah had died. They were living in fear of the Romans and would have had no motivation to lie. And had they lied when they were given the chance to admit their lies or be thrown to the lions I would admit my lies. But we can’t be sure the gospels are 100% true.
““So are you saying Jesus gave us moral absolutes?”
Sure he did. The most obvious are that he restated each of the Ten Commandments. He even boiled them all down into just two to make those standards simple: “Love the Lord your God . . . and love your neighbor as yourself.””
I wish it was that easy. But we have the problem of the angry Old testament God.
“As for my own conversion, my God-given conscience (Romans 1:20) and the evidence of him in his creation (Psalm 19:1) led me to seek him in Bible study and the input from Christians. After all, if I was wrong and there really was a God, I was going to be in big trouble when I died. When a person responds positively to the light God gives them, he reveals more of himself. I finally came to the point where I really desired to have a personal relationship with him and told him so. Seeing my heart was sincere, at that moment he saved me and began to change my heart by the Holy Spirit. I’ve often wished I could convey what I now know to an unbeliever for just five minutes—surely they would then understand—but that isn’t how God planned it. He uses people like me who KNOW the truth to speak into the lives of those who don’t. The Bible calls it “shining the light into the darkness.” Unfortunately, the darkness hates the light.
“I am grateful for your sincerity, I have sincere questions but most of the time when I ask them on twitter I get blocked so it was surprising when people actually responded here.”
And I’m grateful that you’ve stuck with this as long as you have. It has been my pleasure to interact with you. As I think I said before, I believe God is doing something in your life. I know he desperately wants to have an eternal relationship with you; that’s why he created you. He’s taken the first steps and now it’s up to you. (I’ll admit it would be somewhat easier to discuss one thing at a time, but in the overall scheme of eternity, my time is your time.)”
Yeah I agree it takes about 90 minutes to reply but these questions have been nagging at me for years and I’ve always wanted to discuss them with a sincere Christian. What evidence is there for creation? What if you were wrong and the universe was created by another god? Aren’t you making him madder every time you go to church? Remember Muslims would sincerely believe their God was the one true God.
Yeah Tom- Christians, like atheists, aren’t perfect. But I shouldn’t blame all Christians for the actions of some. I still believe we are already connected to God when we are born “Before you were born, I knew you” think about that. Before you were born…
Christians should also realize that in the end God will judge us, many gays and “sinners” just don’t believe God exists and the best we can do is show them compassion in this life and if God will judge them he will also judge us for the way we treated others.
So do you believe if a woman is in an abusive relationship with a controlling husband and files for divorce she does she shouldn’t be allowed to marry if she finds true love? That’s an example of how most Christians change their morals. Most would disagree.
How do we know which passages in the Old Testament were for the Jewish nation only? Did you know Jesus only taught to Jews and it wasn’t until after his resurrection he said “Go out and preach to all nations”?
As for your gay couples example, logic and reason are always objective. It’s just sometimes society can get it wrong. They might use their own standards to come to what they believe is a reasonable decision but they can still be wrong and using faith as a standard is not logical.
I know many Americans who would argue that the founding fathers were Deist and Christian and that treaty of Tripoli and other treaty’s passed by the founding fathers show America was never a Christian nation but a nation under God and that the first amendment states congress shall pass no law establishing religion ie no state religion like in Iran.
I do see the point you are trying to make and it is one made by many theists but I would argue that logic and reason are always right and unchanging. What was logical back then is still logical now, we just weren’t a society based on logic and reason. Plus being moral out of fear of hell or to please some deity is not really being moral. I’m moral out of compassion and because I want to make the world a better place. If people aren’t moral towards me then I come to the conclusion that at least I have the upper hand.
While my last post is awaiting moderation due to its length, here’s an article that does a petty good job of discussing the Bible and its view on slavery. (Oh, and keep in mind that just because God “allowed” something to occur doesn’t mean he condoned it or thought it to be a moral practice. Does that make sense?)
Does the Bible allow for slavery?
No, the Bible does not condone slavery. The Bible acknowledges slavery’s existence and regulates it in the Old Testament and plants the seeds of its demise in the New. Both testaments give instructions to slave holders regarding slavery (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Leviticus 25:39-46; Ephesians 6:5-9; Colossians 3:22-4:1). While Paul mentions the preference of freedom over slavery, he doesn’t place a great deal of importance on the issue (1 Corinthians 7:21-23). To Paul, spiritual status is much more important than social standing. He gladly identifies himself as a slave of Christ (Romans 1:1), and the purpose of his entire letter to Philemon is to restore Philemon’s relationship to his runaway slave, Onesimus, whom Philemon was to receive “both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord” (Philemon 1:16 NIV).
There were two basic types of slaves in biblical times. The first were those taken in war. The clever Gibeonites avoided war altogether by offering themselves as servants to the Israelites (Joshua 9). The more common slave was one who had voluntarily sold himself or had been sold by his or her parents to pay off a debt. In a time devoid of extensive government aid or social services—or excessive credit card offers—pledging one’s work was legitimate currency. In some cases, however, a debtor’s labor was needed for the survival of his family, and hard choices had to be made. If a father dedicated all his work to pay off a debt, he would be unable to provide for his own family; rather than risk the whole family starving, a man would often give the creditor a child who would work the debt off. The family would survive, and the child sold into slavery would at least have his basic needs met (see 2 Kings 4:1).
If the debt was excessive, or if the servant liked his situation, the slave became the permanent property of the master. If the slave was Jew, however, God instructed owners to treat him as a hired man (Leviticus 25:39-40). And, just as God provided for the widow and orphan, He also cared for the slave. The Mosaic Law gave slaves the right of Sabbath (Exodus 23:12), required significant compensation for abuse (Exodus 21:20, 26-27, 32), gave specific protection for women (Exodus 21:7-11), and commanded that all slaves be set free on the Year of Jubilee (Leviticus 25:39-41). Job asserts that God not only holds him accountable for his slaves’ well-being, but God actually sees no difference between the master and slave (Job 31:13-15). Often, if a man had no heir, his property passed on to his slave (Genesis 15:2-3). These concessions do not condone the practice of one human being owning another, but they do provide for the care and support of those unable to support themselves.
It is clear that the slavery mentioned in the Bible was quite different from the slavery practiced during the last several hundred years. The slavery of the Bible was more akin to indentured servitude than modern-day slavery. The Bible’s punishment for kidnapping someone and keeping or selling him was death—in other words, involuntary slavery was a capital offense (Exodus 21:16). The systematic kidnapping and enslaving of countless Africans in the fifteenth to nineteenth centuries was absolutely unbiblical. Paul specifically mentions “slave traders” and calls them lawless, rebellious, ungodly, unholy, and profane (1 Timothy 1:8-10).
The problem of slavery has not gone away. There are more slaves in the world today than at all other times in history combined. Today we call it “human trafficking,” and it is just as evil as it was when the New World was being colonized.
It’s suspected that revenue from human trafficking surpasses that from illegal arms trading and will soon overtake drug trafficking to become the top illegal industry in the world. Approximately 27 million people today are victims of human trafficking. Fifty percent are children; eighty percent are women and girls. In the U.S. alone, 200,000 children are at risk of sexual exploitation every year.
This abuse is the antithesis of biblical care for indentured servants. During the past few centuries, some in the church bowed to expediency and economy and rejected the Bible’s guidelines protecting the most vulnerable members of society. Some people condemn the Bible for not abolishing slavery outright. However, the primary goal of the gospel was not sweeping social change but individual spiritual change. When enough hearts are changed, society will change. All it takes is enough Philemons to see a slave “as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord,” and slavery as an institution would disappear. If the world followed the Bible, the millions of sex-trafficking victims would be freed and cared for, and the vast majority of labor-trafficking victims would be home with their families.
Slavery occurs because of a need, real or perceived. In biblical times, the need was the repayment of family debts. Today, the “need” is cheap goods and cheap sex. The statutes in the Bible specifically speak against the abuse of anyone, including slaves. The Bible also promotes fair labor practices (1 Timothy 5:18) and healthy sexual relationships (1 Corinthians 7:2). At every turn, God’s laws are for our protection. If we followed those laws and truly loved others (1 John 3:16), modern slavery would naturally be abolished.
“Why do you feel the need to defend slavery in the first place?”
I want to fully address this with you, but I think you’ll agree that we need to try for one thing at a time for conciseness. I will, however, try to address this more fully in a separate post today.
“As for prophecies on Jesus anyone could make up a story around made up prophecies about a messiah.”
Remember that dozens of specific prophecies about Jesus were made hundreds, and in some cases thousands, of years before he was born. A number of those prophecies even a person who wanted to personally try to fulfill wouldn’t be able to. Prophecies such as where he would be born, from what tribe of Israel, events concerning his childhood, the attempts to kill him shortly after his birth, the amount of money he would be betrayed for, how he would die (it was prophesied he would die by crucifixion centuries before the Romans invented that method of execution.) The list is very long.
“As for divorce:
Matthew 5:31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’[f] 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”
I’ll touch only briefly on this in this post but expound more later—God is absolutely moral and the moral giver. However, if he were to immediately do away with everyone who did something immoral, there would be no person left alive. It is a statement of his mercy towards us that he often allows us to do immoral things and live. Again, I’ll expand these thoughts later.
Remember that I said it is necessary to always consider scriptures in context? That also means we can’t just take one verse and make doctrine out of it. We need to look at everything God’s word says about the subject. So what else did Jesus say about divorce? In Matthew 19:8-9 Jesus said, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” OK, now we have a fuller and clearer explanation of God’s view of divorce. There are other passages to consider as well, but these show that God’s view of divorce did not change; he simply allowed a sinful nation of Israel to divorce rather than have the hard-hearted men make life miserable for their wives. This again shows God’s mercy while not denying his absolute standard of morality.
“So I can only interpret a book correctly if I believe the main character exists?”
Not exactly; but to make a sad attempt at an analogy, who knows more about my wife—the guy living on the next street who has never met her but has read her biography, or me, the one who has lived with her for 40 years? However John in his gospel account tells us, “. . . these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” (John 20:31). Much of the Bible can be understood by the unbeliever; but only a believer can begin to understand the complete picture.
“Which humanists believed murdering unborn babies were wrong? What did humanism teach at the time?”
Granted I’m making a minor assumption, but considering that only 15-25% of Americans were professing to be born-again Christians during the 1800’s and 1900’s, that means 75-85% were unbelievers (humanists) who were following God’s absolute standards of morality and therefore respectful of an unborn baby’s life because abortion was a major offense.
“No humans have free will. I’m saying Hitler was a Christian, at least in the beginning and even if he was an atheist he didn’t do what he did because of his unbelief in any gods.”
A Christian is a born again believer in Jesus Christ and cannot become an “unborn” believer. No evidence whatsoever would indicate that Hitler was an actual Christian. If he had been a Christian, he would have not only known and believed what he was doing was wrong, but the Holy Spirit would not have allowed him to carry out such plans. Because he was not a believer, he had no absolute moral standard by which to gauge his actions and therefore did what he thought was the best thing for evolution and humanism.
“No only if my mother’s life was at risk. But when I think about it I do wonder why women have abortions when they could just give the child up for adoption. Provided they can guarantee they will go towards a loving family.”
That’s good thinking on your part Seon. When it comes right down to it, the vast majority of women have abortions for their own selfish reasons. “It would interfere with my life; it would be an inconvenience; why should I suffer for nine months when I can just be done with it; I’m not ready to raise a kid”: the list is long but in almost every case you can find a sinful, selfish attitude at the root. My wife had an abortion before I knew her; her reasons were fear, confusion (she couldn’t reach the father who was deployed in the military), and her mother’s concerns about what others would think brought pressure from her mom to abort.
“Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.”
Thanks for clarifying that Seon. I had been reading only verse 31:14. Let me try a short response: Breaking God’s rest day was defined by Him as a capital crime (along with the other items you’ve previously listed) among His chosen people, and this at least shows all people how vital its observance is to Him. As far as Israel was concerned, it was to be observed perpetually. Since its use long antedates the calling of Israel, it should actually be regarded as a perpetual reminder to all people of the preeminent importance God placed on the fact of His completed work of creation, and His abhorrence of any religion (e.g., evolutionism) or any practice which denied or trivialized this foundational doctrine. In reality, God’s covenant people, the Jews, are still under this directive today, but biblical and secular history shows they have always pretty much ignored what God wanted (as do most everyone else!)
“By the way a question arises. If God is all powerful and created the Earth in 7 days: Why did he have to rest? Isn’t he ALL POWERFUL”
That’s a question I had for a long time too. Translating any language into another always has its limits. Some translations do a better job by using the word “cease”. Let me use Webster’s definition: “A period or occasion of inactivity.” It wasn’t that God was tired, it was simply that he stopped the work of creating. We use the term “arrest” to describe stopping someone from doing something, not taking a nap.
Ah I see you don’t understand science. You don’t “Believe” in evolution, you accept the evidence. Belief is religion.”
Actually I do understand science. I love science. But macro-evolution, one kind slowly changing into another kind, IS a belief/religion. It is not scientific because in order to be scientific, it must be observable, replicatable, and falsifiable. Macro-evolution is only a theory—a hypothesis—not a scientific fact regardless of how many evolutionists want to say it is.
“Nope, it’s because they teach their children that lie and the lie continues. It troubles me because this is the 21st century, the age of science and reason and they are still young Earth creationists.”
I don’t agree with you that it is lying to children to teach creation (and I believe the lies about evolution are what really are destroying our children). But supposing it was lying, why would someone who has no absolutes for morality or right and wrong know that lying is bad? I do wish you could see the fallacy of your “moral” arguments. You have no moral leg to stand on. You admitted that yourself.
“Where did you get that from “I can’t hate my parents like Jesus wants?” I love my parents and know for sure they exist. Even if I had faith part of me would always doubt it.”
Sorry, but if you re-read your post, I quoted you exactly. Obviously that’s not what you meant.
“I would like to know how do we know the Bible was written by people who Christians claim (Peter to Mark, Matthew, Luke and John the disciple at 90), how do we know the gospels are true when the earliest copy we have comes from a few centuries after Jesus alleged death? . . . . “
I had asked what it would take for you believe, but I don’t think you’ve given a completely honest answer. I’ve answered these same types of questions to atheists and agnostics many times and they simply move on to another long list of questions. So what would it REALLY take to convince you?
“So are you saying Jesus gave us moral absolutes?”
Sure he did. The most obvious are that he restated each of the Ten Commandments. He even boiled them all down into just two to make those standards simple: “Love the Lord your God . . . and love your neighbor as yourself.”
“What convinced you to be a Christian from being an atheist? Saying Satan has caused me to be skeptical is like me claiming Set has caused you to be skeptical of Osiris. You don’t believe any of those gods exist and would wonder why I am using fictional characters to try to convince you my god is real. I’m just trying to show you how I feel.”
I know much about what Satan is doing because of God’s revelation of Satan in the Bible. I know that seems foolish to you, but it’s a fact. Frankly I’m amazed every day by how perfectly what the Bible says fits with what I see happening in the world as the days grow short to the second coming of Christ.
As for my own conversion, my God-given conscience (Romans 1:20) and the evidence of him in his creation (Psalm 19:1) led me to seek him in Bible study and the input from Christians. After all, if I was wrong and there really was a God, I was going to be in big trouble when I died. When a person responds positively to the light God gives them, he reveals more of himself. I finally came to the point where I really desired to have a personal relationship with him and told him so. Seeing my heart was sincere, at that moment he saved me and began to change my heart by the Holy Spirit. I’ve often wished I could convey what I now know to an unbeliever for just five minutes—surely they would then understand—but that isn’t how God planned it. He uses people like me who KNOW the truth to speak into the lives of those who don’t. The Bible calls it “shining the light into the darkness.” Unfortunately, the darkness hates the light.
“I am grateful for your sincerity, I have sincere questions but most of the time when I ask them on twitter I get blocked so it was surprising when people actually responded here.”
And I’m grateful that you’ve stuck with this as long as you have. It has been my pleasure to interact with you. As I think I said before, I believe God is doing something in your life. I know he desperately wants to have an eternal relationship with you; that’s why he created you. He’s taken the first steps and now it’s up to you. (I’ll admit it would be somewhat easier to discuss one thing at a time, but in the overall scheme of eternity, my time is your time.)
You are correct Seon. But here’s the crux of the matter—Every human being is born with a sin nature. You may have noticed you don’t have to teach a child to disobey; they do it by nature. Because we are sinners, we cannot have a relationship with a holy God. Man tries to do what they consider “good things” in order to appease God but no matter what they do they have still been sinful against God and must suffer the consequences—eternal separation from God. But God in his mercy and grace made a way for sinful people to be reconciled back to him. God stepped into time, taking on human form in Jesus Christ, because only a perfect sacrifice will atone for sin. We aren’t perfect, Jesus Christ is. He exhibited in his life who God is and lived that perfect godly life. If a person will renounce the sinfulness in their life and trust in Christ, their sentence of eternal spiritual death will be wiped away having been paid in full by Jesus’ death. This is the supreme example of God’s mercy and grace. In his mercy he doesn’t immediately give us what we deserve for sin—instant physical death and separation from him forever—and in his grace he gives us what we don’t deserve—complete payment for our sins and eternal life with him in heaven. While a person’s sins are forgiven when they repent and trust Christ, they still have the sin nature inside. There is a spiritual battle between the new nature in Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit that indwells the believer and the old sin nature that Satan tries to use to gum up the works so-to-speak. The fact the sin nature still exists, and will exist until we die physically, is the reason even Christians sometimes sin in word or deed or thought. I’m far from being a perfect Christian—no one can be this side of heaven—but I’ve been completely forgiven of every sin past, present, and future. Does that make sense?
I agree that the posts have become unwieldy and would prefer to focus on one thing at a time.
The teachings of morality—what is right and wrong—do not change in the Bible. The way people acted and what God may have allowed at any given time changed; but that doesn’t change what the God/the Bible teaches about what is moral. (I will try to explain this in more detail about this later.)
Let me correct you about two of your statements about what I believe:
1. I did not say that the Old Testament was just for the tribes of Israel. All of the Bible is profitable for all mankind in all ages. However, many of the specifics in the OT pertain to the Jewish nation only. Everything in the Bible should always be taken in context. That’s the first rule of good Bible study.
2. I have never disagreed with Jesus about divorce. I agree precisely with what he taught.
You say your “morals are to benefit evolution and society.” That is a fine intention. But what standard of morality do you use? Suppose today you do something that will benefit society. You would call that moral, would you not? Now let’s suppose that over time and changes within the society, that thing you did was no longer something that society considered “good.” Would it not then be considered immoral? For example: up until the last few decades, no society on earth that I’m aware of thought it was good for society as a whole for the head of families to be made up of two men or two women marrying each other. Societies believed and recognized that the strongest (and therefore best for society) family unit was one man and one woman, for procreation and raising children. That idea has now pretty much changed throughout many of the civilized nations. So which concept is actually morally right and which is morally wrong? By the changing/evolving humanistic standards, they both would be. It is simply a matter of different times and circumstances. But that shows that there was no absolute standard of morality because absolute standards do not change. Absolute standards of morality are the same anywhere in the universe at any point in time. What you have without them may be “called” morals, but in fact, they are only concepts or beliefs that happen to theoretically advance society.
In order for there to be absolute morals that don’t change from place to place and from time to time, there has to be an ultimate source of morality. That source would have to be all-knowing and all-wise and perfectly moral in order to KNOW what absolute morality looked like. And that person is God.
I live in the United States and I am seeing this played out before my eyes. For nearly 200 years, the vast majority of people gave some deference to the Bible and the things of God in this society. Contrary to historical revisionists, the nation was founded on biblical principles. The U.S. was arguably the most prosperous and powerful nation the world has ever known. In 1963, the Supreme Court decided to start removing God from our society, starting with prayer and Bible reading in the school system. Within 10 years, the U.S. experienced its first defeat in a war. Within those 10 years, the “free-love” movement started with rampant sexual immorality. In 1973, the courts deemed it acceptable to start murdering unborn babies, something that was unthinkable for the nation up to that point. I won’t go into all the details over the last 40 years, but the nation is now on the verge of financial collapse, is obsessed with in-your-face sexual deviance and immorality (by God’s standards, not man’s), has lost its power internationally, and is literally on the verge of anarchy. For 200 years, our morality was based on the standards of God. For the last 50 years, it has been based on man’s attempts to “improve” society using their own concepts of morality. We are now reaping the results.
So to close this, while you may call humanistic endeavors to improve society “morals,” they are not absolute and unchanging. Therefore, they are not really “morals” but concepts and beliefs. Do you see the difference?
Another thing I don’t get is when I read the gospels God clearly wants us to love him and each other but many Christians (the people posting here and a few others are an exception) don’t seem to show that love. Or is it just me? Anyway I think I get what God wants just not some Christians…
Hey Tom,
Why do you feel the need to defend slavery in the first place? I don’t have to defend anything. The burden of proof is on you. You said I miss interpret the meaning of slavery but it is pretty clear in the Bible. The Israelite thugs killed the men, boys and non virgins and kidnapped the virgins. Did they pay the virgins? Did the virgins even have a chance to escape? No, they owned the virgins. Just like fathers owned women until their husbands bought them and then the women could never divorce the husbands.
And yes, no matter what evidence I give you that we share the same common ancestor with Apes you will always say it is evidence for creationism or that the fossils are just of different species. Or that science got the dates wrong and the species only existed a few thousand years ago. And I am referring to Jesus’ teaching on divorce in the Sermon on the mount. Read the entire thing. As for prophecies on Jesus anyone could make up a story around made up prophecies about a messiah.
As for morality that is another one that we could discuss for days. You say I have no right to moral absolutes, I say if you use the Bible to get your moral absolutes you either A. have no moral absolutes (because of the passages I posted and the death penalty for so many things)or B. Your moral absolutes come from something else.
And on and on…
As for divorce:
Matthew 5:31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’[f] 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
“He didn’t. He gave you a conscience so that you would know right from wrong which for the most part you do. But while he gave you a brain with which to reason, your sinful nature (everybody had one) blinds your mind to the truths of scripture. To use an analogy, you are trying to understand a book on advanced calculus while still only having the ability to count up to ten. Repent and turn to God and you will then begin to understand scripture.”
So I can only interpret a book correctly if I believe the main character exists?
““He never actually condoned slavery, even in his parables involving slavery he said nothing against owning another human being.”
(I assume you mean “condemned” not “condoned”.) Jesus didn’t say anything about cutting someone’s head off either. Does that mean he condoned it?”
Jesus instructed his followers to follow the teachings of the old prophets until “he fulfilled the old law” (which wasn’t until his resurrection) so that pretty much answers that question.
““If you truly understood the ethics of humanism you would see true humanism has always said owning another life was wrong.”
If you truly understood that humanism doesn’t have any basis for what is ethical and not ethical, you would understand that regardless of what they may believe now, that idea is still in the evolutionary process. Who knows what it will look like a hundred years from now. Forty years ago, humanists believed that murdering unborn babies was wrong. You’ve made it clear how that has “evolved” since. (By the way, before I knew the Lord, I thought it would be great if we could come up with a way to turn babies into crude oil so that we’d never have a shortage! Jesus Christ changed my heart about that one!)”
Man not even I would go that far. Which humanists believed murdering unborn babies were wrong? What did humanism teach at the time?
“I’ll be the first to agree that millions of atrocities have been committed in the name of religion. But you seem to suggest that religious atrocities negate the existence of the God of the Bible.”
No humans have free will. I’m saying Hitler was a Christian, at least in the beginning and even if he was an atheist he didn’t do what he did because of his unbelief in any gods.
“So say the humanists? (Except for those who will conclude a “guilty” verdict for someone who attacks a pregnant woman and causes the death of her unborn baby.) You see, with no absolute standard of morality, humanists simply say and do whatever feels good to them at the moment. Is it your view that your mother would have had every justification to murder you if she hadn’t felt like carrying you to term? Think on that for a moment.”
No only if my mother’s life was at risk. But when I think about it I do wonder why women have abortions when they could just give the child up for adoption. Provided they can guarantee they will go towards a loving family.
“Maybe I’ve missed something Seon. Please quote chapter and verse. My Bible says the person who worked on the Sabbath was to be cut-off, separated, from the others. Only those who desecrated the Sabbath were to be put to death.”
Which version do you have?! a young Earth Bible? I’ll use the King James Bible since that’s what Christians seem to like:
Exodus 31:15
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death
Exodus 35:2
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
And read Numbers 15:32
By the way a question arises. If God is all powerful and created the Earth in 7 days: Why did he have to rest? Isn’t he ALL POWERFUL
““What’s an evolutionist? I’m not sure what you mean, other species evolved until humans did.”
If you believe that other species evolved (i.e. macro-evolution, one kind into another kind) and that eventually the end result is humans, then you are an evolutionist.”
Ah I see you don’t understand science. You don’t “Believe” in evolution, you accept the evidence. Belief is religion.
“Why do those things concern you Seon? By your own standards, people who believe these things have just “evolved” that way. You’re being unfair with your own belief system.”
Nope, it’s because they teach their children that lie and the lie continues. It troubles me because this is the 21st century, the age of science and reason and they are still young Earth creationists. Just like they are flat Earthers. I know it is the tiny minority of Christians but these people vote!
“Let me address a few things here:
–I seem to be hearing some real hurts in your words, not the least of which is “not hate my parents like he wants.” Am I to understand that you have reason to hate your parents Seon? Did they divorce?”
Where did you get that from “I can’t hate my parents like Jesus wants?” I love my parents and know for sure they exist. Even if I had faith part of me would always doubt it.
“–What would it take for you to believe that Jesus is who he said he was?”
I would like to know how do we know the Bible was written by people who Christians claim (Peter to Mark, Matthew, Luke and John the disciple at 90), how do we know the gospels are true when the earliest copy we have comes from a few centuries after Jesus alleged death?, Why doesn’t history corroborate events like when the prophets rose from the dead during the Resurrection of Christ? (I think it’s Matthew’s account)
“–While God in and of himself never changes, his way of dealing with his creation has definitely changed over time. In no small part, that’s why what we read in the Old Testament sometimes seems contrary to what Jesus taught in the New Testament. But the people being addressed were different, the cultures were different, the circumstances were different, God’s purposes were different in some ways. Could that be a source of some of your confusion Seon?”
So are you saying Jesus gave us moral absolutes?
“You don’t know how much every Christian reading these posts wants desperately to “convince” you Seon. Unfortunately, we can only try to address comments and respond to questions and pray that the Holy Spirit will crack open the heart of every unbeliever to come to the knowledge of the truth. But Seon, God has already done the first part–your conscience and innate belief in “something up there.” The ball is not in your court. As I’ve quoted the scripture before, God said “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.” (Jer. 29:13). The desire to know God is planted within you. It’s part of your conscience. At the same time, Satan will do whatever he can to block that part of you that wants to know the truth. He’ll use humanism, doubt, fear, disappointment, discouragement, atheists and agnostics, and every other thing that will keep you from God. Even so, your last statement makes it clear that you still have God’s spark in you and that he hasn
t given up on you yet. But you’ll HAVE to lay aside all the distractions and mess and seek him with an open heart. Seon, I was pretty much where you are 17 years ago and well, look at me through these posts now. I love God with all my heart. I would lay down my life for Jesus without reservation.
As for one of your last comments, “I’ve asked God- the true God to reveal himself to me. He’s taking his bloody time.” I believe the last couple of months and dozens of posts between you and me and Jamie have all been part of God’s reaching out to you. It took him working in my life (although I didn’t recognize it) for 46 years!! The Bible says God gives the law to the proud (live by the law or by justice you must die), but he gives grace (peace now and life eternal) to the humble.
Please know that I have no hatred or even dislike for you Seon. Everything I’ve written I’ve tried to temper with love. But as I’ve previously stated, my heart is heavy for you. Maybe this will make more sense if I just quote 2 Corinthians 5:20—“Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.””
What convinced you to be a Christian from being an atheist? Saying Satan has caused me to be skeptical is like me claiming Set has caused you to be skeptical of Osiris. You don’t believe any of those gods exist and would wonder why I am using fictional characters to try to convince you my god is real. I’m just trying to show you how I feel.
I am grateful for your sincerity, I have sincere questions but most of the time when I ask them on twitter I get blocked so it was surprising when people actually responded here. It shows me they are still sincere Christians left (including my mum’s church which feeds the homeless) but being sincere doesn’t make a belief true or not. Maybe God’s reminding me while I find some beliefs repulsive the people can still be nice and while I don’t believe in it, it can be a different way to worship god.
My last post is “awaiting moderation” because of its length. Hopefully it will be posted within the next 12 hours.
I’ve started to attempt an explanation of slavery in the Old Testament, but I find I’m not as articulate on the subject as some others.
I will post an article or two that hopefully will do a better job of explaining. I will say this however–nearly all the examples in the OT concerning slavery have to do not with what we commonly think of as slavery, but what we would describe as servanthood . . . one person being paid by another for services rendered. The English word slavery is unfortunately not very descriptive of the reality. Anyway, I’ll post some things in a day or two.
Since the post is getting long again I thought I would sum up the basis of my argument as to why I am moral without God. You say I have no moral absolutes but the morals in your Bible change all the time. For example, you now say slavery is wrong. You would not think burning a witch is moral. You’d probably think it would be up to god to decide. You no longer think women should be forced to marry their rapists. In fact you say the Old testament was just for the tribes of Israel. You even disagree with Jesus when he said divorce was a sin. So as you can see your morals evolve as well. But my morals are to benefit evolution and benefit society. If we went around killing everyone and everything was lawless humanity would cease to exist.
“If there is 120 million pairs of difference in human/ape dna (assuming your figures are correct) that must mean the 96% will have billions of similarities. We also share DNA with other ape species which proves humans and apes share the same common ancestor.”
Which proves we have a common creator. Do you see why trying to give evidence for evolution and creation is a no-win game? You look at all evidence through the eyes of evolution, while I see through the eyes of creation. The issue really is which worldview the evidence more readily supports.
“Well if we determine something isn’t true because it is incorrect about prophecies and contradictions what prophecies did the Bible get right? (apart from Jesus) How can we know for sure who really wrote the gospels and when?”
Since falsehoods are proofs of incorrectness, your question should be, “What prophecies did the Bible NOT get right.”
“Because there is actual good and evil. Ok true all that arises after about the 20th week, so I would say that the decision to have a late trimester abortion shouldn’t be taken lightly (unless it will be to save the woman’s life). But what if the fetus is just a few days old and the rape victim realizes she is pregnant? How can it be bad to have an abortion then?”
You have no justification for addressing “good and evil” because you have no absolute values of such things by which to compare. Therefore absolutely none of your “ethics” statements carry any weight whatsoever in any of these arguments.
“Look up the Sermon on the mount. That’s obviously not a commandment but if everything in the Bible is the literal word of god and always a moral absolute then Christians must believe that.”
To which portion of the Sermon on the Mount are you referring? Also, keep in mind that while everything in the Bible is the literal word of God, we can’t take everything in the Bible literally. For example, the poetry of the Psalms or the obvious metaphors of some of the visions. Jesus said, “I am the door,” but we know he wasn’t a hunk of wood with hinges.
“Sounds like you are avoiding answering the fact by trying to accuse me of having no moral absolute.”
It was you who said you have no moral absolutes. You said you have no reason to know why you have morals did you not? So why argue a moral absolute with someone who has no moral absolutes? That’s silly.
“Why would your God give me a conscious to come to the conclusion that the Bible is immoral?!”
He didn’t. He gave you a conscience so that you would know right from wrong which for the most part you do. But while he gave you a brain with which to reason, your sinful nature (everybody had one) blinds your mind to the truths of scripture. To use an analogy, you are trying to understand a book on advanced calculus while still only having the ability to count up to ten. Repent and turn to God and you will then begin to understand scripture.
“He never actually condoned slavery, even in his parables involving slavery he said nothing against owning another human being.”
(I assume you mean “condemned” not “condoned”.) Jesus didn’t say anything about cutting someone’s head off either. Does that mean he condoned it?
“If you truly understood the ethics of humanism you would see true humanism has always said owning another life was wrong.”
If you truly understood that humanism doesn’t have any basis for what is ethical and not ethical, you would understand that regardless of what they may believe now, that idea is still in the evolutionary process. Who knows what it will look like a hundred years from now. Forty years ago, humanists believed that murdering unborn babies was wrong. You’ve made it clear how that has “evolved” since. (By the way, before I knew the Lord, I thought it would be great if we could come up with a way to turn babies into crude oil so that we’d never have a shortage! Jesus Christ changed my heart about that one!)
“But that doesn’t change the fact the holocaust was religiously motivated.”
I’ll be the first to agree that millions of atrocities have been committed in the name of religion. But you seem to suggest that religious atrocities negate the existence of the God of the Bible.
“My mother wanted a child and wasn’t raped, but again murder is when you kill a fully developed baby who was born. You can’t murder someone who isn’t born yet.”
So say the humanists? (Except for those who will conclude a “guilty” verdict for someone who attacks a pregnant woman and causes the death of her unborn baby.) You see, with no absolute standard of morality, humanists simply say and do whatever feels good to them at the moment. Is it your view that your mother would have had every justification to murder you if she hadn’t felt like carrying you to term? Think on that for a moment.
“Nope the Bible is pretty clear on that. It clearly says kill people who work on the Sabbath.”
Maybe I’ve missed something Seon. Please quote chapter and verse. My Bible says the person who worked on the Sabbath was to be cut-off, separated, from the others. Only those who desecrated the Sabbath were to be put to death.
“What’s an evolutionist? I’m not sure what you mean, other species evolved until humans did.”
If you believe that other species evolved (i.e. macro-evolution, one kind into another kind) and that eventually the end result is humans, then you are an evolutionist.
“And if they found out God didn’t exist they would still choose to be moral. Otherwise they are not really moral.”
Straw man argument. “What if’s” are irrelevant to the conversation. But to respond to the comment, without God there would be no morality because there would be no standard to judge what is moral or not.
“I’m concerned that they are still people who think the millions of species of Dinosaurs existed for about 1,000 years and think God what, magically teleported them off the planet and then magically created man out of mud?”
Why do those things concern you Seon? By your own standards, people who believe these things have just “evolved” that way. You’re being unfair with your own belief system.
“What makes a sincere Muslim who does good because of his faith wrong?”
Why do you ask questions about “good” and “wrong” when you have no standard by which to judge those things? But again to address your comment, the same thing that makes you do “good” even with your lack of faith—a God-given conscience.
“Oh and yes, I once believed Jesus rose from the dead proving he was who he claimed to be but then I read the Old Testament. I wish I could just block out the Old Testament, not hate my parents like he wants and ignore what he said about divorce but he is the same God of the Old Testament. Plus I wish I could know for sure who wrote the gospels and that Jesus was actually a historical character.”
Let me address a few things here:
–I seem to be hearing some real hurts in your words, not the least of which is “not hate my parents like he wants.” Am I to understand that you have reason to hate your parents Seon? Did they divorce?
–What would it take for you to believe that Jesus is who he said he was?
–While God in and of himself never changes, his way of dealing with his creation has definitely changed over time. In no small part, that’s why what we read in the Old Testament sometimes seems contrary to what Jesus taught in the New Testament. But the people being addressed were different, the cultures were different, the circumstances were different, God’s purposes were different in some ways. Could that be a source of some of your confusion Seon?
“Lol they are no “gods of humanism” just like they are no gods of evolution. So would you say you are atheist about the god I believe in? They probably are no gods and I’m probably still trying to hold onto something which is why I wish Christians would convince me.”
You don’t know how much every Christian reading these posts wants desperately to “convince” you Seon. Unfortunately, we can only try to address comments and respond to questions and pray that the Holy Spirit will crack open the heart of every unbeliever to come to the knowledge of the truth. But Seon, God has already done the first part–your conscience and innate belief in “something up there.” The ball is not in your court. As I’ve quoted the scripture before, God said “You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.” (Jer. 29:13). The desire to know God is planted within you. It’s part of your conscience. At the same time, Satan will do whatever he can to block that part of you that wants to know the truth. He’ll use humanism, doubt, fear, disappointment, discouragement, atheists and agnostics, and every other thing that will keep you from God. Even so, your last statement makes it clear that you still have God’s spark in you and that he hasn’t given up on you yet. But you’ll HAVE to lay aside all the distractions and mess and seek him with an open heart. Seon, I was pretty much where you are 17 years ago and well, look at me through these posts now. I love God with all my heart. I would lay down my life for Jesus without reservation.
As for one of your last comments, “I’ve asked God- the true God to reveal himself to me. He’s taking his bloody time.” I believe the last couple of months and dozens of posts between you and me and Jamie have all been part of God’s reaching out to you. It took him working in my life (although I didn’t recognize it) for 46 years!! The Bible says God gives the law to the proud (live by the law or by justice you must die), but he gives grace (peace now and life eternal) to the humble.
Please know that I have no hatred or even dislike for you Seon. Everything I’ve written I’ve tried to temper with love. But as I’ve previously stated, my heart is heavy for you. Maybe this will make more sense if I just quote 2 Corinthians 5:20—“Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”
“What’s more, your god will never send you to hell—because your god doesn’t exist!
Your gods, the gods of evolution and humanism, are contrary, random, meaningless, hopeless, and powerless to help you or anyone personally. You therefore stagger through life with blinders on.”
Lol they are no “gods of humanism” just like they are no gods of evolution. So would you say you are atheist about the god I believe in? They probably are no gods and I’m probably still trying to hold onto something which is why I wish Christians would convince me.
“Like so many others Seon, your understanding of the Bible is tragically limited. Things and events are taken out of context, looked at from only the human perspective and not from God’s, and discounted without any desire to really seek the truth of what’s written. This often happens because people who are initially searching either get foolish, half-answers, bad teaching, or are deceived by those who only think they have the answers.”
Well I just read the Bible. I didn’t listen to what anyone said about it.
“Aldo is correct. God says, “You will seek me and find me when you search for me with all your heart.” You have a world-hardened heart Seon. In your rebellion against a Holy God, you grab at any straws and go to any length to “prove” God doesn’t exist so that you will not have to face negative consequences. But like every human being, you will one day die and you WILL face those consequences whether your believe them or not.”
Hey the burden of proof isn’t on me anyway, I could say I could fly, prove to me I can’t fly. You would laugh but you are using that same logic.
“Here are my unsolicited recommendations to you:
1–Force yourself to be humble for just a moment and ask the God you hate and don’t believe in (although I don’t know how anyone can hate one they don’t believe in), ask him to reveal himself to you.
2–Failing a desire to do #1, go and try to live the happiest, best life you possibly can because in your economy, it’s all the pleasure you will ever have. Don’t waste any more of your time or the time of believers in trying to convince them (in reality you’re only trying to convince yourself) that they are wrong and you are right. I’m telling you, you’re wasting your precious, valuable time.”
I’ve asked God- the true God to reveal himself to me. He’s taking his bloody time.
“In the meantime, know I will pray for you that God will continue to have mercy on you”
And I will pray to Zeus that he doesn’t strike you with a lightning bolt for the blasphemy of claiming there is only one God!
““Where exactly does the Bible teach that?”
Isaiah 40:22”
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:”
Sounds to me as though the Bible is talking about a flat Earth.
““You can call it a falsehood all you want but it doesn’t change the facts. Oh and I was wrong, it’s actually 96%.”
I can’t get my hands on the most recent studies which greatly diminish the 96% rate, but even if 4% of the DNA is different, that amounts to 120 MILLION base pairs of difference, a number far beyond what simple mutations could account for. Also, doesn’t it make every bit of sense that two creatures made by the same creator to live and thrive on this planet, creatures that breathe air, eat and digest food, have eyes to see, ears to hear, noses to smell, etc. would be similar in DNA? Your BMW and my Chevy Nova are made with all the same materials, but they didn’t both evolve from a VW. They had a common “creator” so-to-speak.”
If there is 120 million pairs of difference in human/ape dna (assuming your figures are correct) that must mean the 96% will have billions of similarities. We also share DNA with other ape species which proves humans and apes share the same common ancestor.
““Such as?”
To name but a few, the Book of Mormon is historically, archeologically, and scientifically loaded with errors that discount the believability of the LDS religion. The BOM also had no corroborating witness. The Koran is loaded with blatant contradictions that disprove godly sources, and it also has no corroborating witness. The Watchtower Society (JW) have repeatedly been proven wrong in their prophecies which prove they do not speak from God. (Before you deny corroborating witness of the Bible, remember the Bible is not one book written by one person. It is 66 books written over a 1600 year period by 40 different writers from diverse backgrounds writing in three languages from three different continents; yet there are no contradictions, it tells one seamless story, and the various writers corroborate each other as did Jesus.)””
Well if we determine something isn’t true because it is incorrect about prophecies and contradictions what prophecies did the Bible get right? (apart from Jesus) How can we know for sure who really wrote the gospels and when?
“ “Well are they fully conscious?”
May I suggest if you’re going to keep changing the parameters to try to prove an unborn baby is worth murdering, may I suggest you use a dictionary first to find the right word? First it was “sentient,” and now it is “conscious.” Let’s see—among other definitions which “might” fit your own need, Webster also tells us “conscious” is “having a feeling of one’s own sensations; able to feel and think”. There is no question that unborn babies have feelings of their sensations and are able to feel things. We also know they react to outside stimulus as we measure their active brainwaves. But with all that said, why are you so concerned about women murdering their babies when you do not even have foundation of right or wrong, good or evil? Why aren’t you happy to simply live with your own opinions and let others live with theirs? After all, abortion is legal in most parts of the world so you already have it your way. For a person with no standard of morality, you sure toss around the word a lot.”
Because there is actual good and evil. Evil is Islamic State, evil is the Crusades, the Burning Times, the Inquisition, the Holocaust (which was allowed to happen in part due to religious bigotry), the religiously motivated genocides of the 20th century and yes the communist genocides of the 20th century.
Ok true all that arises after about the 20th week, so I would say that the decision to have a late trimester abortion shouldn’t be taken lightly (unless it will be to save the woman’s life). But what if the fetus is just a few days old and the rape victim realizes she is pregnant? How can it be bad to have an abortion then?
““Like forcing a woman to remain married even though her husband abuses her?”
And which of the Ten Commandments we were discussing covers your concern?”
Look up the Sermon on the mount. That’s obviously not a commandment but if everything in the Bible is the literal word of god and always a moral absolute then Christians must believe that.
““Nope, it is immoral and most moral people to this day would say it is immoral.”
Since you previously admitted you have no reason for believing anything to be moral or immoral, why do you keep making absolute statements about morality? You’ve already admitted they are only your opinions, so why should anyone care?”
Sounds like you are avoiding answering the fact by trying to accuse me of having no moral absolute. I can’t blame you, I’m glad I don’t have to justify slavery.
““So my God given conscious tells me slavery is immoral and has always been immoral?”
That’s is correct, but since you don’t believe in God you are contradicting yourself by saying you believe slavery to be immoral because as a humanist you have no reason to say anything is immoral.”
Why would your God give me a conscious to come to the conclusion that the Bible is immoral?!
““What Biblical passages did the anti slavery Christians use to justify their stance?”
Among many others, how about this one: Jesus told us to “Love your neighbor as yourself.” And let’s not forget the golden rule.”
He never actually condoned slavery, even in his parables involving slavery he said nothing against owning another human being. If you truly understood the ethics of humanism you would see true humanism has always said owning another life was wrong.
“ “(Hitler)spoke of his faith often and like it or not much of the anti Semitism that gave rise the holocaust was religiously motivated. People who blame the Jews for killing Jesus don’t care that he was a Jew.”
What people do or don’t do in the name of religion is on their own heads. Christians make every effort to be Christ-like. Those who have no faith in the God of the Bible have no foundation of right and wrong and therefore do whatever is right in their own minds.”
But that doesn’t change the fact the holocaust was religiously motivated. Jew haters would also use the passages in John where the Jews basically forced Pilate to crucify Jesus as an excuse to hate all Jews. So you can’t really blame secularism for the holocaust. Plus yes, some atheists hate the Jews but they don’t hate the Jews because they believe their god wants them to so even if Hitler was an atheist that does not mean he did what he did because of his unbelief.
“““It’s hard to murder a child in the womb. I’m saying why put a child through all that?”
Oh, you’re right. Death is a much better alternative. I’ll bet you’re glad your mother didn’t feel that way. Let me ask you Seon–why you think you’re the one who should play God? In all your godly omniscience, can you tell which of those babies will grow up to find the cure for cancer, become the president of the United States, or for that matter will be the one who stops a terrorist from murdering you and your entire family? Your justification for murdering babies is astounding.”
My mother wanted a child and wasn’t raped, but again murder is when you kill a fully developed baby who was born. You can’t murder someone who isn’t born yet.
“ “Well if we are to still follow your Bible then we must put to death soldiers, dentists, doctors, nurses, police, firemen and charity workers. But no one in their right mind would suggest we do that because of what these people do for society.”
Did you not understand the difference between working on the Sabbath and desecrating the Sabbath? Let me know and I’ll try to explain again. But even here we see the grace of God in our lives. All of us break his commands and yet he doesn’t just snuff us out. He’s God and could do that if he wanted to.”
Nope the Bible is pretty clear on that. It clearly says kill people who work on the Sabbath. Including benefiting society (if I am wrong please show me an example in the Bible) It also clearly says to kill homosexuals, witches, women who are not virgins on their wedding nights etc. God didn’t snuff the person who gathered sticks on the Sabbath, he told his followers to. The only reason Christians don’t do that today is they are more moral then the Jewish people were back then. Those morals obviously don’t come from your God. That was my point, that even your moral absolutes change over time.
““Yes I do, I feel as though I am repeating myself. The benefit of humanity, to help humans evolve etc”
Yes, and you’ve made it rather clear that one of the ways humanists “benefit” mankind is to murder unborn babies! If I were an evolutionist, I’d be concerned that I might be murdering the baby with the next step on the way to evolutionary perfection! Also, “helping humans evolve” suggests that would be the right thing to do. We already know that humanists have no basis for knowing right from wrong. Oh, and what did evolution do for millions of years before humanists came along to “help it along”?”
What’s an evolutionist? I’m not sure what you mean, other species evolved until humans did.
““So I am moral because I choose to be. How is that any less moral than someone who is only moral because they fear hell?”
How can you choose to be moral when you don’t have a standard by which to know if you’re moral? That doesn’t make sense. Christians KNOW what the absolute standard of morality is because it is God-given; and while a Christian is not perfect and sometimes acts immorally because of the sin nature everyone is born with, the Holy Spirit who lives within the believer is the plumb line by which the believer can strive to stay on the path. In other words, Christians don’t act morally because they fear hell; they act morally because they desire to please the Creator God who gave them life and sustains it. That’s also why Christians will go to their deaths rather than renounce their faith in Christ; out of their love for what He has done for them they don’t want to do anything to dishonor Jesus or God.”
And if they found out God didn’t exist they would still choose to be moral. Otherwise they are not really moral.
““No that’s not true. I don’t ever see a point where it will be considered a good thing to hold back our evolution and continuation of our species.”
And as a humanist just how do you know what a good thing is? You have nothing by which to judge “good.” (Honestly, I’m dismayed to read about your concerns for continuing our species while at the same time you condone the murder of 58 MILLION babies in the U.S. in the last 42 years. That’s about one out of every five people murdered in the womb.)”
I’m concerned that they are still people who think the millions of species of Dinosaurs existed for about 1,000 years and think God what, magically teleported them off the planet and then magically created man out of mud?
““I’m sure you are sincere, otherwise you wouldn’t waste your time. But Muslims and Hindus are just as sincere in their beliefs and their desire to save humanity.”
Unfortunately sincerity doesn’t get anyone to heaven, nor does it necessarily mean they are right. Those who flew two planes into the World Trade Center towers were very sincere—but they were sincerely wrong. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me.””
What makes a sincere Muslim who does good because of his faith wrong?
““How can I hate someone I don’t believe in? It’s like if I said you hate Allah. Well I believe in some sort of higher power but he’s not a tyrant in the clouds smiting unbelievers and loving the smell of animal sacrifices.”
Please believe me when I say I’m writing this in all love and kindness Seon:
That’s right . . . you hate the God of the Bible, the God who gave you life and sustains it every second. You believe in some higher power that is a figment of your imagination because you do not understand the things of God and are so hardened of heart that you are unwilling to learn of him. You spend so much time shaking your fist at him that you’re spiritually blinded into thinking things about him that are simply not true. I’ve found that most people that espouse views such as yours have somehow been hurt by religion or think that God let them down somehow. I remember you saying you were once a Christian, but because of things like slavery and genocide, you decided to harden your heart against God. I say you have a dire lack of understanding. Now these things have become excuses to create a god in your own image.
I do not profess to understand everything about the Bible and God. Yes, there are some things I must take on faith just as you in your humanistic worldview do. But I have yet to find anything in Scripture that can’t be reconciled with the God who loves me and with whom I have a personal relationship. He loves you enough Seon, even with all your fist-shaking, to have sent his own Son to die for you. There is no greater love than that.”
If I shook my fist at something I claimed to not believe in I’d be pretty irrational. I wasn’t hurt by a Christian and don’t hate someone I don’t believe in.
Yeah well you hate Thor! You hate him by denying the Norse Gods exist and claiming only one God exists. That’s one God close to atheism! You claim they don’t exist but they exist because my holy book says so and even though you claim they don’t exist you must have been hurt by Paganism.
Oh and yes, I once believed Jesus rose from the dead proving he was who he claimed to be but then I read the Old Testament. I wish I could just block out the Old Testament, not hate my parents like he wants and ignore what he said about divorce but he is the same God of the Old Testament. Plus I wish I could know for sure who wrote the gospels and that Jesus was actually a historical character.
“Where exactly does the Bible teach that?”
Isaiah 40:22
“You can call it a falsehood all you want but it doesn’t change the facts. Oh and I was wrong, it’s actually 96%.”
I can’t get my hands on the most recent studies which greatly diminish the 96% rate, but even if 4% of the DNA is different, that amounts to 120 MILLION base pairs of difference, a number far beyond what simple mutations could account for. Also, doesn’t it make every bit of sense that two creatures made by the same creator to live and thrive on this planet, creatures that breathe air, eat and digest food, have eyes to see, ears to hear, noses to smell, etc. would be similar in DNA? Your BMW and my Chevy Nova are made with all the same materials, but they didn’t both evolve from a VW. They had a common “creator” so-to-speak.
“Such as?”
To name but a few, the Book of Mormon is historically, archeologically, and scientifically loaded with errors that discount the believability of the LDS religion. The BOM also had no corroborating witness. The Koran is loaded with blatant contradictions that disprove godly sources, and it also has no corroborating witness. The Watchtower Society (JW) have repeatedly been proven wrong in their prophecies which prove they do not speak from God. (Before you deny corroborating witness of the Bible, remember the Bible is not one book written by one person. It is 66 books written over a 1600 year period by 40 different writers from diverse backgrounds writing in three languages from three different continents; yet there are no contradictions, it tells one seamless story, and the various writers corroborate each other as did Jesus.)
“Well are they fully conscious?”
May I suggest if you’re going to keep changing the parameters to try to prove an unborn baby is worth murdering, may I suggest you use a dictionary first to find the right word? First it was “sentient,” and now it is “conscious.” Let’s see—among other definitions which “might” fit your own need, Webster also tells us “conscious” is “having a feeling of one’s own sensations; able to feel and think”. There is no question that unborn babies have feelings of their sensations and are able to feel things. We also know they react to outside stimulus as we measure their active brainwaves. But with all that said, why are you so concerned about women murdering their babies when you do not even have foundation of right or wrong, good or evil? Why aren’t you happy to simply live with your own opinions and let others live with theirs? After all, abortion is legal in most parts of the world so you already have it your way. For a person with no standard of morality, you sure toss around the word a lot.
“Like forcing a woman to remain married even though her husband abuses her?”
And which of the Ten Commandments we were discussing covers your concern?
“Nope, it is immoral and most moral people to this day would say it is immoral.”
Since you previously admitted you have no reason for believing anything to be moral or immoral, why do you keep making absolute statements about morality? You’ve already admitted they are only your opinions, so why should anyone care?
“So my God given conscious tells me slavery is immoral and has always been immoral?”
That’s is correct, but since you don’t believe in God you are contradicting yourself by saying you believe slavery to be immoral because as a humanist you have no reason to say anything is immoral.
“What Biblical passages did the anti slavery Christians use to justify their stance?”
Among many others, how about this one: Jesus told us to “Love your neighbor as yourself.” And let’s not forget the golden rule.
“(Hitler)spoke of his faith often and like it or not much of the anti Semitism that gave rise the holocaust was religiously motivated. People who blame the Jews for killing Jesus don’t care that he was a Jew.”
What people do or don’t do in the name of religion is on their own heads. Christians make every effort to be Christ-like. Those who have no faith in the God of the Bible have no foundation of right and wrong and therefore do whatever is right in their own minds.
“It’s hard to murder a child in the womb. I’m saying why put a child through all that?”
Oh, you’re right. Death is a much better alternative. I’ll bet you’re glad your mother didn’t feel that way. Let me ask you Seon–why you think you’re the one who should play God? In all your godly omniscience, can you tell which of those babies will grow up to find the cure for cancer, become the president of the United States, or for that matter will be the one who stops a terrorist from murdering you and your entire family? Your justification for murdering babies is astounding.
“Well if we are to still follow your Bible then we must put to death soldiers, dentists, doctors, nurses, police, firemen and charity workers. But no one in their right mind would suggest we do that because of what these people do for society.”
Did you not understand the difference between working on the Sabbath and desecrating the Sabbath? Let me know and I’ll try to explain again. But even here we see the grace of God in our lives. All of us break his commands and yet he doesn’t just snuff us out. He’s God and could do that if he wanted to.
“Yes I do, I feel as though I am repeating myself. The benefit of humanity, to help humans evolve etc”
Yes, and you’ve made it rather clear that one of the ways humanists “benefit” mankind is to murder unborn babies! If I were an evolutionist, I’d be concerned that I might be murdering the baby with the next step on the way to evolutionary perfection! Also, “helping humans evolve” suggests that would be the right thing to do. We already know that humanists have no basis for knowing right from wrong. Oh, and what did evolution do for millions of years before humanists came along to “help it along”?
“So I am moral because I choose to be. How is that any less moral than someone who is only moral because they fear hell?”
How can you choose to be moral when you don’t have a standard by which to know if you’re moral? That doesn’t make sense. Christians KNOW what the absolute standard of morality is because it is God-given; and while a Christian is not perfect and sometimes acts immorally because of the sin nature everyone is born with, the Holy Spirit who lives within the believer is the plumb line by which the believer can strive to stay on the path. In other words, Christians don’t act morally because they fear hell; they act morally because they desire to please the Creator God who gave them life and sustains it. That’s also why Christians will go to their deaths rather than renounce their faith in Christ; out of their love for what He has done for them they don’t want to do anything to dishonor Jesus or God.
“No that’s not true. I don’t ever see a point where it will be considered a good thing to hold back our evolution and continuation of our species.”
And as a humanist just how do you know what a good thing is? You have nothing by which to judge “good.” (Honestly, I’m dismayed to read about your concerns for continuing our species while at the same time you condone the murder of 58 MILLION babies in the U.S. in the last 42 years. That’s about one out of every five people murdered in the womb.)
“I’m sure you are sincere, otherwise you wouldn’t waste your time. But Muslims and Hindus are just as sincere in their beliefs and their desire to save humanity.”
Unfortunately sincerity doesn’t get anyone to heaven, nor does it necessarily mean they are right. Those who flew two planes into the World Trade Center towers were very sincere—but they were sincerely wrong. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me.”
“How can I hate someone I don’t believe in? It’s like if I said you hate Allah. Well I believe in some sort of higher power but he’s not a tyrant in the clouds smiting unbelievers and loving the smell of animal sacrifices.”
Please believe me when I say I’m writing this in all love and kindness Seon:
That’s right . . . you hate the God of the Bible, the God who gave you life and sustains it every second. You believe in some higher power that is a figment of your imagination because you do not understand the things of God and are so hardened of heart that you are unwilling to learn of him. You spend so much time shaking your fist at him that you’re spiritually blinded into thinking things about him that are simply not true. I’ve found that most people that espouse views such as yours have somehow been hurt by religion or think that God let them down somehow. I remember you saying you were once a Christian, but because of things like slavery and genocide, you decided to harden your heart against God. I say you have a dire lack of understanding. Now these things have become excuses to create a god in your own image.
I do not profess to understand everything about the Bible and God. Yes, there are some things I must take on faith just as you in your humanistic worldview do. But I have yet to find anything in Scripture that can’t be reconciled with the God who loves me and with whom I have a personal relationship. He loves you enough Seon, even with all your fist-shaking, to have sent his own Son to die for you. There is no greater love than that.
“The God I believe in doesn’t support slavery, animal sacrifice, genocide and doesn’t smite anyone. Oh and he created the universe 14 billion years ago.”
What’s more, your god will never send you to hell—because your god doesn’t exist!
Your gods, the gods of evolution and humanism, are contrary, random, meaningless, hopeless, and powerless to help you or anyone personally. You therefore stagger through life with blinders on.
Like so many others Seon, your understanding of the Bible is tragically limited. Things and events are taken out of context, looked at from only the human perspective and not from God’s, and discounted without any desire to really seek the truth of what’s written. This often happens because people who are initially searching either get foolish, half-answers, bad teaching, or are deceived by those who only think they have the answers.
Aldo is correct. God says, “You will seek me and find me when you search for me with all your heart.” You have a world-hardened heart Seon. In your rebellion against a Holy God, you grab at any straws and go to any length to “prove” God doesn’t exist so that you will not have to face negative consequences. But like every human being, you will one day die and you WILL face those consequences whether your believe them or not.
Here are my unsolicited recommendations to you:
1–Force yourself to be humble for just a moment and ask the God you hate and don’t believe in (although I don’t know how anyone can hate one they don’t believe in), ask him to reveal himself to you.
2–Failing a desire to do #1, go and try to live the happiest, best life you possibly can because in your economy, it’s all the pleasure you will ever have. Don’t waste any more of your time or the time of believers in trying to convince them (in reality you’re only trying to convince yourself) that they are wrong and you are right. I’m telling you, you’re wasting your precious, valuable time.
In the meantime, know I will pray for you that God will continue to have mercy on you.
Aldo–
Thank you for the encouragement. It does at times seem like we are the voices of one’s crying in the wilderness. I’m sure that you also have nothing but love and concern for these blinded unbelievers.
“Interesting you should use that example. Nearly three thousand years ago, the Bible referenced the earth being round, not flat, yet the “scientists” all said the earth was flat until about 1492. Every year, new evidence, scientific evidence, comes to light to support a young-earth model.”
Where exactly does the Bible teach that?
“That STILL doesn’t address the falsehoods of ape-human DNA reports.”
You can call it a falsehood all you want but it doesn’t change the facts. Oh and I was wrong, it’s actually 96%.
“It doesn’t have to. There are many things which have disproved the false gods.”
Such as? While we are at it since you are atheist about 99% of the other gods out there how can we prove they don’t exist too?
“Why do you keep changing the parameters? Webster defines sentient as, “to perceive by the senses; capable of feeling or perception; conscious.” Babies at 20 weeks are capable of fully feeling pain. At less time than that, babies can be seen via ultrasound sucking their fingers and rearranging themselves for comfort. They also try to pull away from an abortionist’s probes and death instruments. They respond to sounds such as music. Obviously, they meet the qualifications of being sentient. But supposing you will contend they don’t have full use of all their senses—carrying that argument to its logical conclusion, blind people, deaf people, and paraplegics and quadraplegics would be worth murdering because they don’t have all their “senses.””
Well are they fully conscious? Now who is making a straw man. Blind and death people are still 100% conscious.
““Where’s the moral absolutes in the Bible?”
Exodus chapter 20 for one. They’re called The Ten Commandments. And Jesus taught extensively on absolute morals. ”
Like forcing a woman to remain married even though her husband abuses her?
““As I provided in another post God once commanded his troops to keep slaves. Numbers 31:9,Numbers 321:17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.(How is that any different from Islamic State?) but normal ethical people today would find those passages immoral.”
I answered this concern elsewhere.”
Nope, it is immoral and most moral people to this day would say it is immoral. The only one’s who wouldn’t are those so blinded by faith.
““As I have stated I believe the Old Testament is immoral. So where do I get that moral code from?”
First, as a humanist you have no justification for saying anything is moral or immoral. Your worldview does not have any basis or foundation for knowing what those things are. You’ve already admitted that. So any sense of morality you express is a direct result of your God-given conscience. “Con” means “with,” and “science” means “knowledge.” As the scriptures state, everyone has with the knowledge of God and a sense of right and wrong. Every time you state a moral view, you are borrowing from the creation worldview.”
So my God given conscious tells me slavery is immoral and has always been immoral? (even in Biblical times)
““So slavery is still justified?”
Are you aware that it was a result of biblical teaching that slavery finally came to an end in a number of nations? Although you have admitted you have no basis for knowing what is moral and what is not, and therefore should have no concern for slavery because you don’t know if it is right or wrong, because your God-given conscience is telling you slavery is wrong, here is some information regarding your concerns: http://creation.com/bible-v-slavery”
What Biblical passages did the anti slavery Christians use to justify their stance?
““Hitler was a Catholic and never ex communicated- Even after his death. And even if he was he did what he did because of the anti-Semitism in Germany which was motivated in part by religious anti Semitism (ie the Jews killed Jesus)…”
Whatever labels he or others may have placed on him, Hitler was obviously not a God-fearing, Bible-believing Christian, so the point is mute.”
He spoke of his faith often and like it or not much of the anti Semitism that gave rise the holocaust was religiously motivated. People who blame the Jews for killing Jesus don’t care that he was a Jew.
““While your wife is a positive example they are also a lot of children who don’t get adopted out and are forced to remain in the system until adult hood.”
Another straw-man argument Seon.
So you’re stating that those who stay in the system until adulthood would have been better off murdered in the womb? Why don’t you ask a few of them and see what they have to say about that?!”
It’s hard to murder a child in the whomb. I’m saying why put a child through all that?
““Killing someone who works on the Sabbath.”
The fourth Commandment states that we are to keep the Sabbath Holy. That hasn’t changed. Christians and Jews continue to keep one day a week as a day of rest and to honor the Lord and Giver of life. There was a day when the majority people in the U.S. did just that, but not anymore. Now take a look around at the degradation of the nation as a whole.
As for “killing someone who worked on the Sabbath,” God’s command to “put to death” in Exodus 31:14 specifically refers to those who DESECRATE or PROFANE the Sabbath. It then goes on to say that those who work on the Sabbath are to be “cut off” or “separated” from the others (i.e. put out of the camp) so as not to defile everyone.”
Well if we are to still follow your Bible then we must put to death soldiers, dentists, doctors, nurses, police, firemen and charity workers. But no one in their right mind would suggest we do that because of what these people do for society.
““I keep explaining humanist teaches that all human life is sacred- so murder is wrong.”
I know, and I keep explaining that as a humanist, you have no basis for knowing whether murder is wrong. You have no standard.”
Yes I do, I feel as though I am repeating myself. The benefit of humanity, to help humans evolve etc
““And I don’t say that because I fear hell or any eternal punishment.”
Obviously not or you would immediately fall on your face before Almighty God and pray for His mercy and forgiveness.”
So I am moral because I choose to be. How is that any less moral than someone who is only moral because they fear hell?
“““We do- killing is wrong. Period.”
“Based on evolution and the benefit of the human species.”
Exactly– you have no set standard of right and wrong. It keeps right on evolving/changing, and is at the whim of whatever the majority of the human species deems at any given moment in time. Therefore, your humanistic morality has a foundation of shifting sand which can’t be trusted.”
No that’s not true. I don’t ever see a point where it will be considered a good thing to hold back our evolution and continuation of our species.
”
“Nope I haven’t, Christians aren’t the only ones with morals.”
I never said they were. That’s not the argument. The point is that Christians have an absolute moral foundation—the Bible—to base their actions and morality on. The humanist has, as I stated above, only shifting sand for a foundation. The fact you HAVE morals is ABSOLUTE PROOF there is a God. You couldn’t get them anywhere else.”
Well it’s not the God of the Bible.
““That has about the same effect as me telling you Zeus is showing YOU mercy by not sending a lightning bolt in your direction for denying the gods. You don’t even believe he exists.”
I didn’t write it for effect; I wrote it because it is true and because as a Christian I love you and desire to warn you; the same way either of us would warn a blind man who was tapping his way to an open manhole. The consequences are totally up to you.”
I’m sure you are sincere, otherwise you wouldn’t waste your time. But Muslims and Hindus are just as sincere in their beliefs and their desire to save humanity.
““As I said I have given up with young Earth creationists.”
Your last dozen or so posts don’t attest to that. But please know this—God hasn’t given up on Seon. Many much more adamant God-haters than you have come to saving faith in Jesus Christ. I sincerely pray you will join them.”
How can I hate someone I don’t believe in? It’s like if I said you hate Allah. Well I believe in some sort of higher power but he’s not a tyrant in the clouds smiting unbelievers and loving the smell of animal sacrifices.
Aldo read the Bible- that’s why I’m not a Christian anymore. The God I believe in doesn’t support slavery, animal sacrifice, genocide and doesn’t smite anyone. Oh and he created the universe 14 billion years ago.
Tom, kudos to you on your reponses to Seon.
May the Lord continue to use you mightily as you endeavor to know Him and make Him known.
Seon, many people, including well known intellectuals, have done a study of the Bile to disprove and discredit it, only to come to the revelation that Jesus Christ is who He says He is, and that the Bible is indeed God’s Word.
I challenge you to do the same, intent on finding the truth, for the Bible says that whoever seeks for the truth deligently will find it.
I pray that you decide to do that, and that God would show Himself real on your behalf.
“It’s like trying to convince a flat Earth society member that the Earth is round. There’s just no point. Good luck with your delusion.”
Interesting you should use that example. Nearly three thousand years ago, the Bible referenced the earth being round, not flat, yet the “scientists” all said the earth was flat until about 1492. Every year, new evidence, scientific evidence, comes to light to support a young-earth model.
“It’s more evidence of evolution. How did all of the animals native to Australia make it back all the way here? You would say God just teleported them back.”
That STILL doesn’t address the falsehoods of ape-human DNA reports.
“Science has also never disproven the Pagan Gods or the Hindu Gods. Does that mean they exist?”
It doesn’t have to. There are many things which have disproved the false gods.
“Are fetuses fully sentient LIKE adult’s and aware of what’s going on?”
Why do you keep changing the parameters? Webster defines sentient as, “to perceive by the senses; capable of feeling or perception; conscious.” Babies at 20 weeks are capable of fully feeling pain. At less time than that, babies can be seen via ultrasound sucking their fingers and rearranging themselves for comfort. They also try to pull away from an abortionist’s probes and death instruments. They respond to sounds such as music. Obviously, they meet the qualifications of being sentient. But supposing you will contend they don’t have full use of all their senses—carrying that argument to its logical conclusion, blind people, deaf people, and paraplegics and quadraplegics would be worth murdering because they don’t have all their “senses.”
“Where’s the moral absolutes in the Bible?”
Exodus chapter 20 for one. They’re called The Ten Commandments. And Jesus taught extensively on absolute morals.
“As I provided in another post God once commanded his troops to keep slaves. Numbers 31:9,Numbers 321:17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.(How is that any different from Islamic State?) but normal ethical people today would find those passages immoral.”
I answered this concern elsewhere.
“As I have stated I believe the Old Testament is immoral. So where do I get that moral code from?”
First, as a humanist you have no justification for saying anything is moral or immoral. Your worldview does not have any basis or foundation for knowing what those things are. You’ve already admitted that. So any sense of morality you express is a direct result of your God-given conscience. “Con” means “with,” and “science” means “knowledge.” As the scriptures state, everyone has with the knowledge of God and a sense of right and wrong. Every time you state a moral view, you are borrowing from the creation worldview.
“So slavery is still justified?”
Are you aware that it was a result of biblical teaching that slavery finally came to an end in a number of nations? Although you have admitted you have no basis for knowing what is moral and what is not, and therefore should have no concern for slavery because you don’t know if it is right or wrong, because your God-given conscience is telling you slavery is wrong, here is some information regarding your concerns: http://creation.com/bible-v-slavery
“Hitler was a Catholic and never ex communicated- Even after his death. And even if he was he did what he did because of the anti-Semitism in Germany which was motivated in part by religious anti Semitism (ie the Jews killed Jesus)…”
Whatever labels he or others may have placed on him, Hitler was obviously not a God-fearing, Bible-believing Christian, so the point is mute.
“While your wife is a positive example they are also a lot of children who don’t get adopted out and are forced to remain in the system until adult hood.”
Another straw-man argument Seon.
So you’re stating that those who stay in the system until adulthood would have been better off murdered in the womb? Why don’t you ask a few of them and see what they have to say about that?!
“Killing someone who works on the Sabbath.”
The fourth Commandment states that we are to keep the Sabbath Holy. That hasn’t changed. Christians and Jews continue to keep one day a week as a day of rest and to honor the Lord and Giver of life. There was a day when the majority people in the U.S. did just that, but not anymore. Now take a look around at the degradation of the nation as a whole.
As for “killing someone who worked on the Sabbath,” God’s command to “put to death” in Exodus 31:14 specifically refers to those who DESECRATE or PROFANE the Sabbath. It then goes on to say that those who work on the Sabbath are to be “cut off” or “separated” from the others (i.e. put out of the camp) so as not to defile everyone.
“I keep explaining humanist teaches that all human life is sacred- so murder is wrong.”
I know, and I keep explaining that as a humanist, you have no basis for knowing whether murder is wrong. You have no standard.
“And I don’t say that because I fear hell or any eternal punishment.”
Obviously not or you would immediately fall on your face before Almighty God and pray for His mercy and forgiveness.
““We do- killing is wrong. Period.”
“Based on evolution and the benefit of the human species.”
Exactly– you have no set standard of right and wrong. It keeps right on evolving/changing, and is at the whim of whatever the majority of the human species deems at any given moment in time. Therefore, your humanistic morality has a foundation of shifting sand which can’t be trusted.
“Nope I haven’t, Christians aren’t the only ones with morals.”
I never said they were. That’s not the argument. The point is that Christians have an absolute moral foundation—the Bible—to base their actions and morality on. The humanist has, as I stated above, only shifting sand for a foundation. The fact you HAVE morals is ABSOLUTE PROOF there is a God. You couldn’t get them anywhere else.
“That has about the same effect as me telling you Zeus is showing YOU mercy by not sending a lightning bolt in your direction for denying the gods. You don’t even believe he exists.”
I didn’t write it for effect; I wrote it because it is true and because as a Christian I love you and desire to warn you; the same way either of us would warn a blind man who was tapping his way to an open manhole. The consequences are totally up to you.
“As I said I have given up with young Earth creationists.”
Your last dozen or so posts don’t attest to that. But please know this—God hasn’t given up on Seon. Many much more adamant God-haters than you have come to saving faith in Jesus Christ. I sincerely pray you will join them.
“Resorting to question-begging epithets (in other words basically saying NYAA NYAA NYAA) will do little to further this conversation. “
I realized along time ago you can’t change the mind of a young Earth creationist. Any evidence you give them that the Earth is older: The Dinosaurs, cosmic evidence, carbon dating, fossils, common sense will always be explained away. It’s like trying to convince a flat Earth society member that the Earth is round. There’s just no point. Good luck with your delusion.
“What does that have to do with the falsehoods of ape-human DNA studies?”
It’s more evidence of evolution. How did all of the animals native to Australia make it back all the way here? You would say God just teleported them back.
“The point was NOT whether everything in the Bible can be EXPLAINED scientifically. It cannot. The point was whether science has ever DIS-PROVEN anything in the Bible. It has not.”
Science has also never disproven the Pagan Gods or the Hindu Gods. Does that mean they exist?
“So it all has to do with the name we call it? You have stated that as a humanist you believe all human life is of value. At the same time, you deny that a fetus is a human life. But scientifically, if you check the fetus’ DNA it reveals that it is a human being. And what are the attributes of something being alive? Is it growing? Is it developing? Are its cells reproducing? If so, then it is alive. Therefore, a human fetus is a living human being and you are using semantics to justify murdering unborn babies.”
Are fetuses fully sentient LIKE adult’s and aware of what’s going on?
““I told you, to benefit society and evolution.”
That’s not a logical answer: “Believe what I say because I’m telling you.” Why should I simply take your word for it? It is only your point of view because humanists have no foundation for absolute morality and truths and therefore have unfounded points of view.”
Where’s the moral absolutes in the Bible? As I provided in another post God once commanded his troops to keep slaves. Numbers 31:9,Numbers 321:17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.(How is that any different from Islamic State?) but normal ethical people today would find those passages immoral.
““It is also morally wrong and I can’t tell you where I get the sense that all life is sacred.”
Thank you for admitting that you have no reason whatsoever for your views on morality. As a result, your views on morality should be left out of this discussion entirely as being only your opinion with no absolute basis for beliefs.
I can tell you where you “get the sense that all life is sacred . . .” From your God-given conscience and His moral absolutes. (“ . . . because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” Romans 1). Unfortunately you will not admit that to yourself because, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.” Romans 1.”
As I have stated I believe the Old Testament is immoral. So where do I get that moral code from?
““Exactly and Rick and those Christians who would outlaw abortion are morally wrong. Period.”
Sorry, but you can’t discuss what is morally right or wrong because as you admitted, you have no basis for KNOWING what is right or wrong.”
If you use a book which commanded Jewish women be treated like slaves (first their father owned them then they were bought by their husband slave owner), that women should be forced to marry their rapists, that if you gather sticks on the Sabbath you should be put to death, that witches and gays should be put to death, that women who are not virgins on their wedding nights should be put to death, that teaches God loves the smell of animals being burnt alive, that teaches someone who sacrificed their child got off scott free (11:29-40) as a moral compass then you have no moral compass. And neather do Christians who justify slavery and the Old Testament massacres.
““Has the Bible ever been wrong? Hopefully this question will get someone else to think.”
Not that anyone has ever found. And it won’t ever be because it came from the perfect mind of God and was overseen by the Holy Spirit of God.”
So slavery is still justified?
““Do you know what children go through when they are in the foster system? If they can guarantee an adoption to a loving parents that would be a beneficial alternative. But we must still consider the health of the woman, especially if it is a child.”
This is a straw-man argument. Supposing this and that doesn’t change the fact that murdering a living human being is wrong. My wife was a foster child and is a fine example of womanhood and spiritual truth and honor. You’re talking about exceptions, not the rule. And I fully agree with you that we should consider (protect)the health of women—God has given us the desire and responsibility for not only women but all human life. (By your standards, we should kill off all downs-syndrome or other misfit children too–or the old folks with Alzheimers. Come to think of it, that’s exactly what Hitler, the humanist did.)”
Hitler was a Catholic and never ex communicated- Even after his death. And even if he was he did what he did because of the anti-Semitism in Germany which was motivated in part by religious anti Semitism (ie the Jews killed Jesus) but I won’t blame religion completely because a lot of good Christians protected the Jews. While your wife is a positive example they are also a lot of children who don’t get adopted out and are forced to remain in the system until adult hood. Now who is resorting to a straw man? The people he killed were fully sentient adult beings and thus completely worthy of life.
““But even those standards change.”
They do? Please give me an example of one of the Ten Commandments that has changed.”
Killing someone who works on the Sabbath.
““How many Christians are in the prison population? Who says murderers who aren’t Christians are humanists? Even if they are most humanists would find them appalling.”
Nope, didn’t say that at all. I asked you specifically what percentage of murderers in prison are Christian compared to non-Christians. Why don’t you look it up. (Don’t know why humanists would find this appalling since they have no absolute basis for what is and isn’t appalling.)”
I keep explaining humanist teaches that all human life is sacred- so murder is wrong. And I don’t say that because I fear hell or any eternal punishment. Plus if humanists and Christians kill most of the time it isn’t due to faith or their sense of morals.
““We do- killing is wrong. Period.”
Oops, you’re giving your unfounded opinion again.”
Based on evolution and the benefit of the human species.
““And any father willing to sacrifice his own son to his God is not moral. Any God forcing his follower to make that choice is not a moral being. It’s more like a bully.”
Read the account in your Bible again. Did God actually HAVE Abraham sacrifice his son? No. And please discontinue your comments about what’s moral and not moral. You’ve admitted they are only your opinions.”
Nope I haven’t, Christians aren’t the only ones with morals.
““Numbers 31:9 King James Version (KJV) 9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods”
This is a great example of God’s justice, mercy, and grace. Every one of the Midianites deserved to be destroyed for their ungodliness and horrendous practices, particularly against God’s chosen people. However, while he brought justice to everyone else, he graciously spared the young women and gave them to those who were charged with taken care of them.”
Yep only a Christian would justify slavery. That’s what it is. Those captives were owned by the people who kidnapped them. Such a loving God.
““Plus, I refuse to worship a bully God who took part in these massacres:”
OK, don’t worship Him. While I’m sure that breaks His heart, God certainly isn’t going to force you to love Him. However, He is, even at this moment, showing you mercy and grace by not snuffing out your life immediately for your blasphemy against Him.”
That has about the same effect as me telling you Zeus is showing YOU mercy by not sending a lightning bolt in your direction for denying the gods. You don’t even believe he exists.
““The God of the Bible is a bully and a god of war.”
Your list of scriptures describe in much detail how God will go to every length to protect those who are His chosen people—those who love Him and obey His commands. He will destroy those who come against His people. Meanwhile, in His love even for those sort of people, He offers a full pardon of all wrong-doings by repenting and trusting in His Son Jesus Christ. “
He didn’t offer that to the people the Islamic State of the day wiped out. In fact that is worse then the Islamic State but I suppose if they could the Islamic state would burn villages alive.
““And Jesus isn’t any better Matthew 10:53 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. “
I can’t fault you too much for misinterpreting the scriptures. The Bible tells us that spiritual things (the things of God) can only be spiritually discerned. However, this one should be fairly easy for you to understand. Two things are being revealed here by Jesus. First he is stating that a person’s love for God must be so great that even their love for their own family will pale in comparison. When you love God more than anything else, all other love will look like hatred by comparison, not in actuality.
Second, when a person becomes a child of God by repenting and trusting in Jesus, those living in and for worldly pursuits often turn against the believer. They literally hate God, whether consciously or sub-consciously because their darkened hearts hate the light of God, and subsequently His people. (Jews are hated by the world for the same reason—they are God’s chosen people.) On a smaller scale the hate of the world for the things of God manifests itself in ways such as your relentless postings against God, Jesus, and the Bible. Why are you wasting your valuable time trying to convince Christians they are wrong? The Bible tells us why.”
As I said I have given up with young Earth creationists. Even if Jesus really was God and rose from the dead again after the 3rd day and died for our sins, I could still never love him more then my parents. And I would know that they can’t hate people they don’t believe even existed. It would be like me telling you that you hate Allah. You’d be like “But I don’t believe in him”
“LMAO . . . . . .”
Resorting to question-begging epithets (in other words basically saying NYAA NYAA NYAA) will do little to further this conversation.
“But the differences are so small. How did the platypus get from the ark to Australia?”
What does that have to do with the falsehoods of ape-human DNA studies?
“I did that, talking snakes: Not scientific, mud to man creation: Not scientific, rib to woman creation: Not scientific, living inside big fish well you better believe it not scientific.”
The point was NOT whether everything in the Bible can be EXPLAINED scientifically. It cannot. The point was whether science has ever DIS-PROVEN anything in the Bible. It has not.
“It is OK to murder an innocent baby when IT IS NOT A BABY BUT A FETUS THAT IS NOT FULLY DEVELOPED, THEN IT IS NOT MURDER”
So it all has to do with the name we call it? You have stated that as a humanist you believe all human life is of value. At the same time, you deny that a fetus is a human life. But scientifically, if you check the fetus’ DNA it reveals that it is a human being. And what are the attributes of something being alive? Is it growing? Is it developing? Are its cells reproducing? If so, then it is alive. Therefore, a human fetus is a living human being and you are using semantics to justify murdering unborn babies.
“I told you, to benefit society and evolution.”
That’s not a logical answer: “Believe what I say because I’m telling you.” Why should I simply take your word for it? It is only your point of view because humanists have no foundation for absolute morality and truths and therefore have unfounded points of view.
“It is also morally wrong and I can’t tell you where I get the sense that all life is sacred.”
Thank you for admitting that you have no reason whatsoever for your views on morality. As a result, your views on morality should be left out of this discussion entirely as being only your opinion with no absolute basis for beliefs.
I can tell you where you “get the sense that all life is sacred . . .” From your God-given conscience and His moral absolutes. (“ . . . because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.” Romans 1). Unfortunately you will not admit that to yourself because, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.” Romans 1.
“Exactly and Rick and those Christians who would outlaw abortion are morally wrong. Period.”
Sorry, but you can’t discuss what is morally right or wrong because as you admitted, you have no basis for KNOWING what is right or wrong.
“Has the Bible ever been wrong? Hopefully this question will get someone else to think.”
Not that anyone has ever found. And it won’t ever be because it came from the perfect mind of God and was overseen by the Holy Spirit of God.
“Do you know what children go through when they are in the foster system? If they can guarantee an adoption to a loving parents that would be a beneficial alternative. But we must still consider the health of the woman, especially if it is a child.”
This is a straw-man argument. Supposing this and that doesn’t change the fact that murdering a living human being is wrong. My wife was a foster child and is a fine example of womanhood and spiritual truth and honor. You’re talking about exceptions, not the rule. And I fully agree with you that we should consider (protect)the health of women—God has given us the desire and responsibility for not only women but all human life. (By your standards, we should kill off all downs-syndrome or other misfit children too–or the old folks with Alzheimers. Come to think of it, that’s exactly what Hitler, the humanist did.)
“But even those standards change.”
They do? Please give me an example of one of the Ten Commandments that has changed.
“How many Christians are in the prison population? Who says murderers who aren’t Christians are humanists? Even if they are most humanists would find them appalling.”
Nope, didn’t say that at all. I asked you specifically what percentage of murderers in prison are Christian compared to non-Christians. Why don’t you look it up. (Don’t know why humanists would find this appalling since they have no absolute basis for what is and isn’t appalling.)
“We do- killing is wrong. Period.”
Oops, you’re giving your unfounded opinion again.
“And any father willing to sacrifice his own son to his God is not moral. Any God forcing his follower to make that choice is not a moral being. It’s more like a bully.”
Read the account in your Bible again. Did God actually HAVE Abraham sacrifice his son? No. And please discontinue your comments about what’s moral and not moral. You’ve admitted they are only your opinions.
“Numbers 31:9 King James Version (KJV) 9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods”
This is a great example of God’s justice, mercy, and grace. Every one of the Midianites deserved to be destroyed for their ungodliness and horrendous practices, particularly against God’s chosen people. However, while he brought justice to everyone else, he graciously spared the young women and gave them to those who were charged with taken care of them.
“Plus, I refuse to worship a bully God who took part in these massacres:”
OK, don’t worship Him. While I’m sure that breaks His heart, God certainly isn’t going to force you to love Him. However, He is, even at this moment, showing you mercy and grace by not snuffing out your life immediately for your blasphemy against Him.
“The God of the Bible is a bully and a god of war.”
Your list of scriptures describe in much detail how God will go to every length to protect those who are His chosen people—those who love Him and obey His commands. He will destroy those who come against His people. Meanwhile, in His love even for those sort of people, He offers a full pardon of all wrong-doings by repenting and trusting in His Son Jesus Christ.
“And Jesus isn’t any better Matthew 10:53 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. “
I can’t fault you too much for misinterpreting the scriptures. The Bible tells us that spiritual things (the things of God) can only be spiritually discerned. However, this one should be fairly easy for you to understand. Two things are being revealed here by Jesus. First he is stating that a person’s love for God must be so great that even their love for their own family will pale in comparison. When you love God more than anything else, all other love will look like hatred by comparison, not in actuality.
Second, when a person becomes a child of God by repenting and trusting in Jesus, those living in and for worldly pursuits often turn against the believer. They literally hate God, whether consciously or sub-consciously because their darkened hearts hate the light of God, and subsequently His people. (Jews are hated by the world for the same reason—they are God’s chosen people.) On a smaller scale the hate of the world for the things of God manifests itself in ways such as your relentless postings against God, Jesus, and the Bible. Why are you wasting your valuable time trying to convince Christians they are wrong? The Bible tells us why.
Oops it did show and I can’t delete my second post.
Tom-
Not sure if this showed but…
(probably for the benefit of those who read this thread more so) here are the passages you asked for:
Numbers 31:9 King James Version (KJV)
9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods
Plus, I refuse to worship a bully God who took part in these massacres:
Numbers 25:4
And the Lord said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel.
Exodus 32:27-29King James Version (KJV)
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour
Numbers 16:27-33King James Version (KJV)
27 So they gat up from the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, on every side: and Dathan and Abiram came out, and stood in the door of their tents, and their wives, and their sons, and their little children.
28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the Lord hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
29 If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the Lord hath not sent me.
30 But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord
Numbers 16:35King James Version (KJV)
35 And there came out a fire from the Lord, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
Numbers 25
5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.
6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
As for beating slaves
Exodus 21:20-21King James Version (KJV)
20 And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21 Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.
The God of the Bible is a bully and a god of war. And Jesus isn’t any better Matthew 10:53 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law
And finally, I refuse to hate my parents Luke 14:26