Can You Connect to God Without Religion?
Is there a difference between God and Religion? There is definitely a difference between God and religion. God is someone I have a relationship with. My view on God can be altered by many factors in my life. It can be affected by my relationship with my own father or even by my culture and the people I spend time with.
I see religion is a set of beliefs that have guidelines for behavior associated with them. There are many religions with many differing beliefs and rules. I don’t think God needs religion. He wants to have a relationship with me. It is so easy for me to get confused and think that my relationship with him has rules of engagement. I love knowing that God cares about me and that my relationship with him does not need a lot of order and structure. I want to participate in religion or church to celebrate his holiness, but it’s not a condition of knowing God. Do you believe you can you connect to God without religion?
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I think the prophets are a major piece of confirming the validity of the Bible. Part of the reason that God revealed future events through the prophets was to confirm that they were indeed speaking for Him. Knowing the future before it happens is the domain of the divine. Especially with the specificity of some Bible prophecy it can only be understood to come from someone who is outside of the natural world. God set the test for the a prophet to be 100% accurate 100% of the time. Those were the prophets that you could have confidence that they were speaking on behalf of God.
Now look at Daniel’s prophecy of the the Greek Empire (Daniel 8) where it describes the conquest over the Medeo-Persian Empire by Alexander the Great, his death and the rise of his four generals. It is astounding that this is written about 200 years before the events took place.
Look at the prophecies in Isaiah about the life of Jesus (Isaiah 52:13-53:12). These were written over 700 years before Jesus and we have copies of this from the 2nd century BC. So we know these existed before Jesus lived and yet they describe His death for the sins of humanity of clearly.
I don’t see anything irrational about that. In fact, the opposite is true; ignoring this evidence seems the irrational path.
Just because the majority of the world’s population rejects this does not make it false. A teacher does not mark a test based on what the majority of students answer. The correct answers are correct even if no one acknowledges it.
Jamie:
The Bible most certainly is not as factual as you say it is. If it were it would be incorporated into the History Curriculum at all major Universities. You cannot use the prophets in the Bible as proof of the validity of the Bible. As a matter of simple logic that is irrational. To test a theory, you require irrefutable objective evidence to establish whether it is true or not. Your theory unfortunately is completely subjective It rests completely on what you want to believe. I repeat the majority of the world population rejects what you hold to be true. Do not separate yourself from the world. Try to understand your error.
Jack, we have eye witness testimonies of the work of God in the history of the world. Those documents include prophetic material that only someone with supernatural insight could have. Much of those documents are grounded in actual verifiable historical events, people and places. Those documents reflect an oral tradition that goes back to the very beginning of time itself. The Bible lays out the way that humanity turned away from the truth of God and how God continually involved Himself in our history in order that we could know Him as He is. It is not as if Moses began a new understanding of God but that he received what had been passed down through the generations before and through his relationship with God received the truth of what all that meant for us.
You say that you need proof; I ask, how much more do you need? It seems to me that you interpret things to fit into your purposes. You reject the written testimony of God because you want to be able to control who God is and how you relate to Him. You pick and choose what things you will put your trust in so that you don’t have to submit to God’s authority. You talk about scientific proof but then speak about the infinite nature of the multiverse and reincarnation, ideas that have no connection with the scientific laws that we do know for certain. The idea of a multiverse is a weak straw to grasp at in order to avoid the need for a supernatural Creator who has fine-tuned our Universe for life. There is absolutely no basis for that according to the known laws of physics and there is absolutely no evidence for it except that this Universe exists.
You want a scientific explanation for the beginning of the Universe you must acknowledge that this Universe has a finite beginning. The laws of thermodynamics – proven, testable, observed and repeatable – say that a universe with an infinite past would be an equal spread of energy at a constant temperature of zero kelvin. Obviously our Universe has not reached that therefore our universe had a beginning. That means at some point in the past there was nothing and then there was something. In order for that to happen something that is not subject to the same laws of thermodynamics must have initiated that beginning. There is no other explanation. If you try to find a natural explanation for the existence of our Universe you are bound by the natural laws that govern our Universe. Even the Multiverse must have a finite beginning. An infinite expansion and and contraction of natural universes over an infinite amount of time would still have reached equilibrium at some point in the infinite past and we would not exist. Just take Newton’s Cradle and add as many balls as you like to it: eventually all the energy of movement stops. Therefore the only explanation for the existence of our Universe is a Supernatural Creator.
With that starting point you can then begin to evaluate the nature of that Supernatural Creator by looking at His Creation. He is obviously super-intelligent because the necessary fine-tuning to create this universe is staggering. A Creator with that intelligence who created this Universe to have life must have had a purpose in mind for that. A being with that level of intellect acts with purpose and His Creation reveals that very clearly. There is order and predictability, not random chaos. So a Creator that creates with purpose and created humanity with the ability and curiosity to explore must have desired to be known by His Creation. The unique place of the Earth, our solar system, and our galaxy gives us a prime means of exploring our universe; again this all shows purpose and intent. So a Creator that wants to be known, who has gone to such great lengths to be known would not leave our knowledge of Him to chance or the whim of our imagination. He would reveal Himself so that we could be sure of who He is. No better way to do that then to provide a written revelation of Himself to us. And then He went one better and actually became one of us.
I could go on and on here, but you can see how perfectly the Bible describes what we see of our Creator. There is no religion that better fits what we see in what God has made. You combine that with the amazingly accurate nature of the documents of the Bible and I ask you, “How much more proof do you need?”
Jamie:
What it comes down to is this. If you do not need much proof so be it. I and i suspect the majority of people need scientific proof. What bothers me most is that if the Bible holds some essential truth than why was it kept from us for most of hour history on this earth? Why has book based faith caused so much death for non believers in this world. Today people still war over territory because they believe in a different religious story, I said before these seemingly benign stories can be lethal to others. I know that a scientific search for GOD is a unifying approach for mankind. Atheists use science to disprove any caring creative force in the universe.
To them I say if it leads you there so be it. That very same science proves
to me better than any book that there most certainly a caring unifying force that is cause of everything, From the evidence there is no question but that we inhabit an eternal universe. That knowledge alone should unite us but it does not,
It is true that a number of second burials are described in the Bible but that does not mean those are the only second burials that took place. Many others could have been. As far as a record of those, we know that the Hebrew people had other documents that kept records as well. 1&2 Kings and 1&2 Chronicles both refer to other historical records that we no longer have accessible to us. Just because those records were not kept as a part of sacred texts does not mean that they didn’t exist. It could be that a record was made of other relocated bones as well. I appreciate, Jack, that you do acknowledge that there is other possible explanations of why the remains of the bodies from the Exodus have not yet been found.
“The DNA shows an unexpected hereditary link to the Denisovans, Neandertals’ genetic cousins . . .) Good reason for that–they’re all human beings!One human being turned into . . . . . . . . . . .another human being! Pretty cool!
Jamie:
The relocation of bones is the Bible is matter that is not taken lightly. The reason for this is that Biblical Hebrews felt that GOD would flesh on these bones at time of the Feast of Leviathans. Orthodox Jews today demonstrate this concern by using tweezers to pick up the flesh of dead Israeli’s who were blown apart by a terrorist bomb. For the buried bones of the wandering of Exodus not to be accounted for in light of this very great concern, makes one question the veracity of the story, That is not to say that an insignificant Exodus occurred for which there will be very little proof existing today. We are left at best with an exaggeration of the truth and nothing in the Bible needs to be taken literally to enjoy it as wonderful story about all of us.
Thanks for the link Jack. I wasn’t able to get to the whole article because I don’t have a subscription to the Nature journal. What exactly were you wanting to say about this in the context of our conversation?
I am also unsure of your point in your last post to Tom about the movement of Joseph’s bones. Could I get you to clarify that for us please?
Tom;
The miracle of the Exodus story is diminished significantly by reason of the absence of bones. With respect to Biblical bones, there removal would be noted as a matter of significance. The Bible speaks by way of how and where bones are relocated. The story of Joseph’s bones is but one illustration of this specificity. Logic would tell us that to not mention it would mean the author lived long after the story occurred, Such such are not reliable by the passage of time. This is simply unreliable history, To constantly search for excuses is to demonstrate an irrational need to believe.
19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.
Jamie:
Go this site for the purpose of continuing our reasoned discussion.
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ancient-hominid-bone-serves-dna-stunner
You know that not all bones are fossilized right Jack? Given the right conditions some bones do last for thousands of years but many don’t. All I am saying is that just because those bones have not been located does not conclude the Bible is a false record. There are some who have suggested other theories of how the Hebrews came to the land of Canaan but there is far less proof of that. Keep in mind that the parts if the Bible that describe the Children of Israel coming to the Promised Land is told as an eye witness account. There are literary critics who try to suggest that the authorship of these documents was as late as 400 BC but that theory has been shown to be very weak. There is too much evidence that the documents were written by someone who was very familiar with Egyptian culture, language, and names of the time to be a later authorship. So we have an eyewitness account that was used throughout the history of the nation of Israel and Judah as a foundation for their beliefs and culture. Discounting that testimony because of missing bones is reckless. There is archeological finds that helps substantiate the biblical accounts. Have a look at http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/exodus.htm and let me know what you think.
You can find the intact bones of dinosaurs which died millions of years ago. Why is it so hard for you accept that the bones and indeed other human tissue would have been preserved in dry desert for 10’s of thousands of years. Christian Biblical Archaeologists long ago despaired of locating the bones of the ancient Hebrew wanderers. They concluded that the bones had been swept up to heaven above. The bones over time would have been more deeply buried in the sand. Predation cannot account for the disappearance of so much bone material. Most believing archaeologist are not as dismissive as you are about the absence of bones. The Exodus story has been dismissed as myth or pure exaggeration of a much smaller smaller Exodus. Modern archaeology has determine that the ancient Hebrew people had once been part of the people of Canaan. When they became monotheistic they broke with their pagan brothers. Long before these monotheists an Egyptian pharaoh turned Egypt into a monotheistic nation that only existed as such during his rule.
So you are saying that it is impossible for the bones of the Hebrews to have deteriorated over the thousands of years? That they could not have decayed like so many other human remains do? That scavengers could not have destroyed the evidence of those bones in the intervening time? That the Bedouin people who travel in those areas would not have used those bones to fuel their fires? Or any other myriad of reasons for those bones to have been destroyed? Is that your position Jack?
Jericho findings–
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/01/Jericho-Does-the-Evidence-Disprove-or-Prove-the-Bible.aspx
Jamie:
Wrong, wrong and wrong. We are talking about 600,000 corpses. Broken up into pieces of bone would create a literal mountain of bones. The desert preserves corpses for a very long time. The desert is in fact the wilderness. The story of the Exodus is untrue and at best it is such an exaggeration of the truth that it begins to approach deceit. To make the story true, we should know with certainty if and where the ancient Hebrews reburied the bones. But it makes no mention of it. I suppose the writer became too tired to write anything more.Where is the battle of Jericho proven? Why did GOD authorize a genocide against the pagan Canaanites? Why didn’t he make them too dizzy to fight back?. Why is there no stella in Egypt describing their victimization by GOD. . Why was Mary not accused of being a common fornicator for having birthed Jesus in mysterious circumstances, Why does one Book that was edited out of the bible, speak of a married Jesus? Who invented the concept of Virgin Birth? The writers of the Bible did not. Virgin birth is a pagan concept because pagans considered sexual intercourse dirty. The ancient Hebrews went to great lengths in describing how a man and woman should mate to ensure their union was holy. The other irrefutable criticism of the Bible, it that women play a far less significant role than men. Yet today we know that women are smarter than men. There are now more women taking post graduate work than men, There are now more women taking professional courses than men, Why does the Bile not have them play a far more significant role? Simply because the writers of the Bible did not respect them very much. They may have in fact hated them by making Eve communicate with a serpent and eating from the tree of knowledge and thereby damning humankind.
Archeologists are always discovering new things, such as:
http://fresherglobe.com/2014/12/19/mass-grave-found-egypt-1-million-mummies-estimated
Imagine–a million mummies missing for what, 3000 to 4000 years? No telling what we haven’t found yet!
You have such confidence in the ability of archeologists to find those remains Jack. I can think of many different reasons why those remains have not been found. 1) There are a number of instances in the Genesis and Exodus accounts where a ‘second burial’ is described. Abraham was buried with his wife Sarah. Jacob requested being buried in Canaan. Joseph’s bones were carried from Egypt for the entire 40 years of Wilderness Wanderings and buried with his father at Shechem. It is possible that all the Hebrew families gathered their family members to be buried in the Promised Land. 2) there are a number of places in the Bible where it says that the ‘dead bodies were scattered in the wilderness’. Some have suggested that there was no burial for those bodies which would result in the elements deteriorating all of their remains. We are talking about thousands of years ago. It is absolutely possible that all the remains have deteriorated in that time period.
The lack of evidence does not prove the point. If that be the case, where is the evidence that the Hebrew people got from Egypt to Canaan some other way? Why do you ignore all the evidence that does exist of the accuracy of the Bible’s records?
If the Exodus story was true, archaeologists would definitely have found evidence of it in well over 100 years of searching. It has been concluded without question, that there are absolutely no bones of the buried former slaves in the desert during a forty year wandering, It has been determined that there should be 600,000 such dead Hebrews and at least one should have been discovered by the time the search ended. Fundamentalist Christians who financed part of the search have stated that the bones were clearly spirited up to heaven, Christians will never admit that they have reached a dead end. Jamie site one peer reviewed archaeological paper that explains away the absence of empirical evidence,
There are many different genres of literature in the Bible like poetry, narrative, didactic, apocalyptic, etc. and so it would be wrong to say that the Bible as a whole is meant to be historical. But there are parts that are intended as historical revealing how God has interacted with His Creation. Luke begins his Gospel with, “it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught.” (Luke 1:3-4) So his intent was to give an historical account of the life and ministry of Jesus to help affirm the things being taught about Jesus. Many other parts of the Bible also have that purpose; yes they are giving a spiritual teaching but it is in the context of the acts of God in human history. One of the best ways of knowing someone is seeing how they respond in situations. It is God’s desire that we know Him so it makes sense that He gives us a written account of His actions.
My great-grandfather died when my grandfather was a young boy, and then my great-grandmother just a few years later. My grandfather was taken in by his mother’s family but we have almost no information about my great grandfather’s family even after much researching. That doesn’t mean he didn’t exist but that the ravages of war and cultural upheaval has left no historical record of his existence. And that is just four generations away. To say that there is no historical proof of the Exodus or other events described in the Bible does not mean that those events never happened, but that we have yet to find evidence of them. Nether has there been any evidence that disproves those events. No one has found any conclusive evidence how the Hebrew people came to be in the land of Israel. There is evidence of Semitic people in Egypt in the right time frame. There is evidence that King David did reign over the area in the time the Bible describes. The pieces seem to fit even though there are missing steps.
I know you see Hell as a threat to force one to follow Jesus but that misses the point entirely. Do you see a sign about a closed road as some kind of coercion to get you to go on a different road? Is a poison label on a cleaning product a threat to your personal freedom? These are warnings of danger. God did not create us for Hell nor Hell for us. He made us to have relationship with Him and to be witnesses of His great love and power. The Bible says that God does not want anyone to perish and so He has told us what lies down our path if we continue to follow our own path. He is the source of everything good and if we reject Him we are turning our back on everything good; that path will lead to suffering unimaginable. God is rescuing us from that. If you choose to refuse His rescue you are condemning yourself.
Jamie:
The Bible is a spiritual book. It was never intended to be an historical document. There is much in the bible for which no historical proof exists. The Exodus for one. The collapse of the walls of Jericho another, If the story of the ten commandments is not historical what possible relevancy is a book which has been so undermined. The vast majority of people now or whoever lived do not accept the bible as true. Christians are a minority on this planet after so many thousands of years. Of the Seven billions of souls on this planet how many will not be saved according to your understanding of scripture. Most people do not like to be threatened. I guess you don’t mind Jamie.
I am interested in knowing Jack, if the God you believe in acts in the world? You seem to discount the miraculous. Does your God just sit back and observe or does He involve Himself in the affairs of humanity?
That is one of the key features of the God of the Bible: He is active in the lives of men and women on Earth. It is one of the ways that He shows HIs love for us and His desire to have a relationship with us. I have seen things that cannot be explained except by miracles. I know a girl born with only one functioning ear. A birth defect meant that her right ear was only on the outside with none of the inner pieces like the ear drum and things. When she was in college a group of students prayed for her and suddenly she was able to hear out of that ear. Right there in the college chapel a new inner ear was formed. There is no natural explanation for that and must be attributed to the supernatural. That is the God that I know and follow.
Your statement presupposes that the miraculous events of which the biblical authors wrote about were false. What if the miraculous events were indeed true? If the other elements of which the authors were reporting prove to be true on what do you base your assumption that their observation of the miraculous was false? What evidence is there that they exaggerated the truth? Again, taking the report of the rescue of Jerusalem from Sennacherib, what evidence do you have that the angel of the Lord did not wipe out 185,000 of the Assyrian army?
You compare the Book of Mormon and the Quran to the Bible, but both of those sacred texts have elements that are proved to be historically inaccurate. I early spoke of how in the Quran’s story of the Golden Calf that Moses reprimands Aaron and a Samaritan, which would have been hundreds of years before the city of Samaria was built and named. Also in the Quran’s version of Joseph, Son of Jacob, in Pharaoh’s prison that he prophecies the fate of Pharaoh’s baker to be crucified. The earliest record we have of crucifixion used is hundreds of years later in 6th century BC Persia. The Book of Mormon as well has dubious historical elements. In his escape from the destroyed Jerusalem, Lehi is reported to have taken a journey which included following a river he named Laman that emptied into the Red Sea. There is no such river in that part of Arabia that empties into the Red Sea, nor is there any evidence of any river. This was a well traveled part of the world at that time and a source of fresh water like that would have been noted by others. Both sacred texts have many other inaccuracies on people, places and events that can be proven. The Bible has a far greater track record of proven historical accuracy and is far and away superior in that respect.
Jamie:
The Bible scribes always strove for the miraculous. In this respect the Bible is the written word of men who exaggerated the truth. No one should put much faith in a book that is suspect. But people of faith in spite of the absurdity of doing so, accept books of faith all the time. There is the Book of Mormon and the Quran as well. There is a deep seated need to believe and this need leads many of us astray. GOD can be found on a much stronger foundation. The foundation of science. Evolution is not random, it is purposeful.
Thanks Jack, the undisputed historical reality is that Sennacherib invaded the land of Judah and besieged the city of Jerusalem with a force that should easily have demolished the whatever resistance Hezekiah could have mustered. But Sennacherib did not defeat Jerusalem and Hezekiah remained king of Judah for years following. The Bible attributes that to the angel of the Lord destroying the main leadership of the army killing 185,000. When the Bible speaks of the angel of the Lord’s actions it is often through illness or the intervention of another person or people’s but it doesn’t diminish the role that the God plays in the history of humankind. We see the angel of the Lord creating a plague that kills the first born of Egypt on the eve of the Hebrew Exodus. The angel of the Lord spreads a plague among the people of Israel for David’s pride in the size of his fighting force. Nebuchadnezzar is referred to as the servant of the Lord even though he was a worshipper of Marduk when he finally did destroy Jerusalem and carry the Jewish people into captivity.
So it is not inaccurate for the Bible to report that it was the angel of the Lord at work even when there were ‘natural’ causes intervening in the situation. Many have speculated that the Assyrian army was struck with a plague in the night that killed so many including those in Sennacherib’s leadership. Add to that the rumours of the coming Kushite under Tirhakah and one can see why Sennacherib would retreat back to Assyria. That doesn’t make the biblical account false or a fairy tale, it is just looking at the event from a spiritual perspective.
What is evident is that the historical accuracy of this event is corroborated by extra-biblical sources, even if they have a different interpretation of the source behind the rescue of Jerusalem. That is why historical scholars consistently use the Bible in their studies of this time period. They may not agree with the Bible’s interpretation but they cannot get away from the accuracy of the accounts on people, places and events. There is no other sacred text that has that kind of record.
Jamie:
King Hezekiah was the King of Jerusalem. His kingdom was besieged by the Assyrians. According to the Bible his Kingdom was saved when angels descended and slew the Assyrian army. In fact Jerusalem was rescued by the African Kush who were also monotheists. The writers of the Bible were habituated to gross exaggerations of pedestrian stories. Most books of history are never completely objective. The Bible is a highly subjective book and not trustworthy. It is a book of fairy tales.
Hi Jack, thanks for the links as conversation starters. I am sure there are parts of those articles that you want to discuss and I am up for that. Let’s take small pieces and not the whole article at once. It will make the conversation a little more easily followable.
I know that there are those who are critical of the authenticity of the Bible. There certainly are many people places and events that are described in the Bible that we have yet to find any archeological evidence for, but that is hardly surprising. I have lost my keys and never been able to find them let alone evidence of civilizations from hundreds and thousands of years ago. That doesn’t mean that the accounts given in the Bible are false. On the flip side there is a lot that has been established through archeological discoveries. In the one article is a link to a list of people in the Bible whose existence has been verified by extra-biblical sources http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biblical_figures_identified_in_extra-biblical_sources These are not just significant figures like Caesar or Nebuchadnezzar but are also smaller players on the world stage. With such a list of confirmed identities one would have to tread very lightly when dismissing the accuracy of the Biblical texts, don’t you think?
Jamie:
I invite you to go this web site. It will inform you of the current state of biblical archaeology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_archaeology
When I was young man, I absolutely adored the feeling I got from accepting the validity of the Bible. One day, I realized the majority of the human race presently does not accept the Bible. Homo Sapiens has existed on this planet much much longer than the Bible. Statics have proven that more Theists commit homicide than do Atheists. I understood that even amongst believers, religion divided them to create different Books about GOD. If you read all the wikipedia article you will learn how the early Hebrews viewed GOD as female.
I suspect because GOD birthed all life, What you and I must believe is that GOD belongs to each of us individually. It is the GOD that satisfies our innermost wants and needs. We love to be entertained by books, music, the theatre and ideas. This love that we possess is the best gift that GOD could have given us. GOD resides in each and every one of us. Love of GOD is love of self.
Good Morning Jamie:
Let’s discuss this if you don’t mind:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_the_Bible
Tom:
Once I played like a child. Now I am a man. I am man significantly older than you. You are filled with unforgivable pride and stubbornness. You are clearly unable to respond to my last post. This demonstrates your lack of personal growth. I would urge you stop in order to not stultify your immortal soul. Open your mind opens up to all the wonderful truth of everyone’s immortality. Only by this will you reduce the number of incarnations of your soul. Tom, why do want to postpone the release of your soul form this mortal manifestation to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?
Jack–
Except for your statement regarding the Bible, I can say exactly the same things to you. However, I have a solid foundation based on facts and evidence for what I believe, while in two dozen postings you have yet to give even one. So sad.
Hi Jack, you are making some pretty broad statements. There is a lot of information on times, people, places and events in the Bible that have been verified. Part of the uniqueness of the Bible are the details that give such specificity of times, places, people and events that gave contemporary readers opportunity to undermine the message. Though the Christian church had many who opposed it, there never was a challenge on any of those aspects. That is why in any historical study of that time period the Bible is a primary text. It’s accuracy is so keen. Sir William Mitchell Ramsay is an example of a archeological scholar who began his career determined to show the inaccuracies of the New Testament. As the foremost scholar at the time of his death in 1939 he had made a complete ‘about face’ on his dependence on the, especially the works of Luke. In his 1915 book “The Bearing of Recent Discovery on the Trustworthiness of the New Testament” he wrote, “Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy…this author should be placed along with the very greatest historians”
Compare that to other writings. Joseph Smith’s supposed translation from hieroglyphics proved to be a complete mockery when the Rosetta Stone was discovered. His historical meanderings about Jesus in North America have no basis in fact. The Quran talks about Samaritans at the making of the golden calf but the city of Samaria was not built until 870 BC by king Omri. No other sacred text comes close to the accurate historical content contained in the Bible.
The Bible not only tells the past with accuracy but it also predicts the future with amazing accuracy. There is no other sacred text that compares to the predictive record of the Bible. Daniel’s description of the Kingdoms controlling Jerusalem reads like a history book rather than a prophecy some hundreds of years before the events took place. Isaiah calling King Cyrus by name as the one who would allow the Jewish exiles return to Jerusalem 170 years before Cyrus was even born. Isaiah’s many prophecies about the coming of Jesus and his death on the cross are astonishing.
It makes sense that people who wish to ignore God would try to undermine the credibility of the Bible, but there has never been any effective challenge. The evidence just does not support your conclusions.
Tom:
The majority of biblical researchers agree with me and not with you. The Bible is not more truthful than the Quran or for that matter mythological books. How do you feel about the truth of The Book of Mormon. How do you square your faith with Jehovah Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventists? Does your mind ever question the legitimacy of yours or anyone else’s religion? Your stubbornness prevents you from beginning the glorious journey to the truth about your Creator. This may be your sin Tom. Give it serious thought before it is too late.
Jack–
You’ve already been given reasonable, logical, factual answers to your statements in earlier posts, so I find no compulsion to go over the same territory.
When a person tries to argue their position without any evidence to support it, they will usually finally have to defer to what is referred to as “name-calling epithets.” I see from your response that is what you are now doing. Calling the Bible “pure unadulterated fantasy” without any basis of fact to do so and suggesting that one isn’t “adult” unless they engage in the same lack-of-evidence rhetoric that you do, certainly will shut down any conversation.
Conversations occur when people can ask questions of others and get solid, fact-based responses. I have yet to see any response from you Jack that has any basis in reality. Maybe one day you will discover you have no “why” answers to the “what” you believe. I hope and pray so.
Tom:
There is the theory of evolution which is probably true based on observation. There is the theory of the expanding universe which is also probably true on the basis of observation. Scientist use great care before they state anything with certainty. They don’t suffer from hubris as you do Tom. For you the Bible is not a matter of theory.It
is in fact worse than theory. It is pure unadulterated fantasy that some malevolent forces have manipulated your thinking into believing its true. “How do you get tot GOD without Religion”. That is what this site is for. You have to expend some real intellectual effort to get here. Why do feel the need to post about your beliefs that are have no relevancy to the what this site is all about? Research the Book of Tom. It is one of many books left out of the Bible. In that book Jesus was married. But the Biblical editors could not have a married Jesus who had sex with his wife. For them sex was evil. The Bible was edited by Men and not women who are inclined to not always see mattes the same as Men. If only women edited the Bible than the Book of Tom would have been included, Instead of waisting your time at this site, why don’t you spend more valuable time engaging in the same research that has allowed so many of us to finally become adults.
Jack–
I read it. I noticed that in the first two paragraphs alone, there are 7 uses of the word “theory,” 1 use of “postulate,” 1 use of “might be,” and 1 use of “idea.” You even used the phrase “most likely,” in your last post. I’m sure you’re familiar with another popular (and fast growing) “theory” that beings from another planet seeded the earth with what eventually became human beings. Seems to me that one “theory” is just as good as another.
With all that said, you CONTINUE to COMPLETELY ignore any and every question put to you that requires any kind of evidence from your side. Why is that??? The only conclusion must be that you have absolutely no foundation upon which you rest any of your beliefs. You have built your entire belief system on shifting sand, as Jesus put it so succinctly. You have accumulated theories, postulations, vague ideas, most likelies, and might bes, with the result of having made a god(s) in your own image, contrary to God’s commandment not to do so.
I am really grieved Jack, that while God has given you all the evidence necessary for you to know Him, you have hardened your heart against Him. Your previous post said that you “once believed in what we do.” (You subsequently ignored my question as to just “what” you believed.) Many people I’ve spoken with that now deny the God of the Bible did so because they believe that God somehow let them down. Maybe a loved one was prayed for and they died anyway. Maybe some other heartbreak in their life that they hold God responsible for. Is that what happened to you Jack? I pray that one day you will at least begin to investigate God’s truths, for unless you do, the moment you die you will know the truth, but for you it will be too late.
Tom:
I invited to search the web to confirm the true facts. Since you appear reluctant to learn to the truth, I decided to impart what most scientists accept as most likely true. Take your time to read it before you respond to this post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
“The vast majority of biblical scholars know that ordinary human beings wrote the bible. The same scholars know from historical documents that the bible you have so much faith in is in fact an edited version of many different opposing views that disagreed with the bible you accept so freely. Search the web and see how flawed your faith is if you have the moral fortitude to do this.”
Yes, ordinary men wrote the words of the Bible—words that were given them by God. 2 Timothy 3:16 confirms this. Your statement about “edited version of many different opposing views” is simply fiction drummed up by supposed “scholars” who are, in fact, not biblical scholars at all. If you’re interested in the facts, just let me know and I’ll give YOU some web sites to peruse.
“With respect to the multi verse, the vast majority of astrophysicists know this to true.”
This is called an “argument from authority“ and carries no weight whatsoever. I can give you an equal number who disagree, but that doesn’t make them right either. Majority doesn’t rule when it comes to truth. Simply put, if other universes can’t be seen and haven’t been physically discovered, why should anyone believe in them?
“They know as a scientific fact that all universes are eternal. We are now going through an expansion phase and within billions of years our Universe will collide with another expanding Universe. Than our Universe will rapidly contract until it becomes an incredibly small but powerful black hole.”
Since observational science has to “observe” something and then replicate it, it is impossible for it to be a “scientific fact that all universes are eternal.” Therefore, it is simply a theory.
“For some reason no scientist is able to explain why that black hole explodes into what we call the Big Bang.”
Maybe that’s because the existence of black holes still hasn’t been proven scientifically or astrologically. They, too, are simply a theory.
Jack, you simply continue to give us all of what you believe without giving us any REASON for believing it. You also haven’t given me any tangible responses to my questions yet. They’re simply opinions, theories, and baseless facts. I’m still waiting and hold you to it . . . . .
TOM:
The vast majority of biblical scholars know that ordinary human beings wrote the bible. The same scholars know from historical documents that the bible you have so much faith in is in fact an edited version of many different opposing views that disagreed with the bible you accept so freely. Search the web and see how flawed your faith is if you have the moral fortitude to do this. With respect to the multi verse, the vast majority of astrophysicists know this to true. They know as a scientific fact that all universes are eternal. We are now going through an expansion phase and within billions of years our Universe will collide with another expanding Universe. Than our Universe will rapidly contract until it becomes an incredibly small but powerful black hole. For some reason no scientist is able to explain why that black hole explodes into what we call the Big Bang. One recent Pope implored astrophysicists to not go behind that moment. In fact they acknowledge this part is currently unknowable.
Jack–
I ask these questions about what you wrote in all sincerity of desiring answers:
“I have believed as you did once upon a time.”
What did you believe?
“I despaired at what religious belief has done to the human race”
So do I, but how would being a born again Christian have a detrimental impact on the human race?
“I found in scientific inquiry a most elegant quest for the All Mighty.”
Do you mean observational science? This science simply observes the natural world and tries to understand it by replicating it. Science itself cannot prove or disprove God.
“Through this journey, I realized that GOD’s actual book is written throughout creation.“
Why would you realize that? What evidence do you have? Or is it simply your opinion?
“From genetic programming that led to all life on this planet to the existence of the multi verse which means the material world will keep repeating itself through eternity,”
What evidence do you have for the multi verse theory? Why not some other un-provable theory?
“The only heaven that exists is in the eternal cycle of recreation,”
How do you know that to be true?
“Just as all universes are recycled so to we live an eternity through the many lives we inhabit.”
How do you know that to be true?
“Only through this process do we finally end our cycle when our souls attain a true state of grace.”
How do you know that to be true?
“It takes courage to separate yourself from words created by ordinary mortals who possessed a gift for writing, Fiction sometimes reads better than truth.”
If you’re referring to the Bible, there are literally thousands of good, evidential reasons to believe it is a supernatural book written by the inspiration of the God it reveals. So why wouldn’t you believe in it?
Jamie:
I have believed as you did once upon a time. I despaired at what religious belief has done to the human raceI throughout history. I found in scientific inquiry a most elegant quest for the All Mighty. Through this journey, I realized that GOD’s actual book is written throughout creation. From genetic programming that led to all life on this planet to the existence of the multi verse which means the material world will keep repeating itself through eternity, The only heaven that exists is in the eternal cycle of recreation, Just as all universes are recycled so to we live an eternity through the many lives we inhabit. Only through this process do we finally end our cycle when our souls attain a true state of grace. It takes courage to separate yourself from words created by ordinary mortals who possessed a gift for writing, Fiction sometimes reads better than truth.
I agree that empathy for others is a primary mindset for human relations. To be able to sacrifice myself for the good of others is something to aspire to. It is a thought process that results in measurable actions. However, the actions do not presuppose the mindset. There could be many motivations for acting in an empathetic way that have nothing to do with an empathetic mindset. So to say that all mammals are empathetic is something difficult to establish because all we have is the action but we don’t know the mindset.
One of the things that Jesus emphasized was the motivation of the heart. In His famous “Sermon on the Mount” he said “You have heard it said ‘Do not murder and whoever murders will be liable for judgement.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable for judgement.” (Matthew 5:21-22) He goes on to identify that lust is just as wrong as adultery. What he is getting at is that our heart is where sin begins, not in our actions. We all know the darkness of our heart. Even our kindest deed often has a selfish motivation. That’s why we need Jesus to come in and change us from the inside out and guide our attitudes, thoughts and emotions. It doesn’t matter how many times we would go around in life we would never get to the place of fixing what is broken within us. The idea of reincarnation just emphasizes the wickedness of our hearts because we all know in this life we can never make ourselves pure.
Greeting Jamie:
I cannot believe in the GOD of the Bible. I prefer to deal with the objective reality of the Universe that was GOD’s creation. Empathy is displayed by most if not all mammals including us. Even a Psychopath can mimic the empathy that his community has shown him or her. 10,000 years ago a young man with spina bifida died from a bacterial infection in his spine. Today we know that a hunter gather society cared for this man. They carried him while he was alive where ever they hunted, Unquestionably his presence delayed their hunt. These primitive men who had no bible displayed a moral courage that many Christians, Muslims, Hindus and Jews could not measure up to. We have created homes for our disabled relatives delegating the caring to others. Its through the cycle of lives that GOD has created, are we able to learn our inadequacies. In each cycle our wise Creator affords us the opportunity to chose our next incarnation. We can choose to be disabled and poor so we can in our next life develop a heart of empathy for those who are disadvantaged. We are all students, and GOD is our teacher. He gave us all a sense of guilt when we know we have wronged another. We in fact experience our own punishing guilt which becomes a manifestation of the real Hell here on Earth. GOD did not cause us to be born ignorant of good and evil. The laws of cause and effect, which is GOD’s creation, ensured that our souls would be filled with love for one another. Love is the foundation for empathy. Empathy is the foundation for doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.
That is an interesting video Jack. As I have said before there are things going on in the spiritual realm around us that we are mostly unaware of. This is certainly an example of things that are mysterious.
The concept of reincarnation, though, is centered around the idea that humans can pay the price for their own mistakes and reach perfection in their own efforts. That idea diminishes the perfection of God and the seriousness of our rebellion against Him. Jesus that apart from Him in our lives we can do nothing of eternal value (John 15:5)
The lie that has been told humanity from the very beginning is that we can be just like God. That lie gets re-packaged and comes at us from many different angles, but at its foundation it is always the same. Other religions suggest that rituals, moral regulations, enlightenment, are the means to achieving perfection. Jesus said “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no one comes to God except through Me.” (John 14:6) He taught that our only hope is to trust in His death to pay then penalty for our rebellion against God and to live each moment under His guidance so that we can live out the purpose for which God created us.
The lie gets reinforced by our own selfish desires, but also by the Father of Lies, Satan. It is entirely possible for Satan to plant memories into a child’s head in order to propagate the lie he wants us all to believe in. Because the life of James Huston is from the past Satan would know all the details of his life and be able to plant those in the head of another person to try to convince them that reincarnation is real. There are many things that he can do like that to distract people from the truth that God has given. That’s why the Bible is such an important gift to humanity. The words there do not change and so we can have confidence in knowing what is true about God because He has revealed it to us in a tangible form. So while a story like this could be evidence for reincarnation, there is also potential that it is a fabrication of Satan and therefore cannot supersede the testimony of God that we have in the Bible.
Ken & Jack:
Both of you gentlemen are assuming that because someone knows something of a prior person’s life or existence, they have been reincarnated from that prior life. There is another perfectly plausible reason for this experience–Demon possession. See: http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/manylife.htm as an example.
Satan is the father of lies and consistently uses falsehoods to make things appear enticing to humanity. His real purpose is to entice denial of Almighty God.
Ken:
Greetings:
I thought this might be of interest to you. This was originally on TV. The young boy is James the Third.
http://www.sunnyskyz.com/good-news/889/Is-This-Enough-Evidence-To-Prove-Reincarnation-Exists-
Hello Capt Jack!
Shoot me an email [it our policy not to publish personal contact information]
Would love to connect.
Peace
Ken
Elkay and Tom:
Tom at most there might be two GOD. One male and One female. Elkay we do get to make choices in order to gain wisdom through each cycle of our infinite number of lives. Both of you should research “multi verse” to fully understand the nature of the creation we all live in. Tom, you still have excessive hubris especially for the Bible you so deeply cherish. But for the GOD that exists that hubris will be forgiven.Our souls get numerous opportunities to discover how it actually feels to be born with a chronic disability. How does anyone develop empathy for his fellow humans without truly knowing how they feel. Below is a web site which briefly explains the concept of the transmigration of souls. We are all just students.
http://personalityspirituality.net/articles/the-michael-teachings/reincarnation-the-35-steps/
Tom, thank you for that advice. I did. You are right. Shalom . . .
Elkay:
You might want to save yourself some time and typing by reading through the last couple dozen posts to and from C.J. He does not answer questions; he simply tells you what to think based on his own perception of gods.
Canadian Jack, can you share the source of your information, especially how God allowed each of us to choose who we would be in this life and that this life is for gaining wisdom in this cycle? Thanks . . .
Elkay:
Precisely Those terrorists followed a book that taught them Jihad against Christians, The Christian Bible taught the Crusaders how to kill Muslims and Jews. GOD rewards us by being brave enough to find HIM without any good Book. The reward is the knowledge of what is expected of us to fulfill within our own personal destiny. GOD in HIS(HER) wisdom allowed each of us to choose who we would be in this life. Each life is instruction for the wisdom we each gain before every material thing ends in this cycle. There is in fact a multi verse. Our Universe is expanding. It is an expansion that accelerates constantly. In time all matter within this Universe will cease to exist and only energy will remain, Than our Universe will impact with the Universe beside us, Immediately our Universe will collapse and the BIG BANG will happen all over again. This is the eternity we all live in. HELL exists only in the minds of those who are plagued with guilt over their misdeeds.
Canadian Jack, if I understand you correctly, when you say “the right choice for most of us is influenced strongly by the biology we were blessed with”, you are implying that what is “right” for me may well be different from what is “right” for you. Today, terrorists broke into a magazine office in Paris and killed 12 people; I am sure they thought they were “right”. That’s lunacy, so you see why we must have the moral absolutes given to us by our Holy God, given in words that can be passed from generation to generation so we do not have to re-learn the lessons of the past.
Jamie:
With words we are able to find minutia about what to disagree about. Without words we would only be able to more deeply share our emotions with each other, People who find GOD in a book are missing an unconditional relationship with the Almighty. Such a relationship existed long before we had words. Man has been on this Earth for well over 100,000 years. There are images recorded on the walls of caves that inform modern man what these first men were preoccupied with. Hunting. Only after we ceased being hunter gatherers did we have the opportunity to consider Who created our need to find purpose in our lives. The deeper idea about a Creator could only occur when we reduced our thoughts to writing, The words of the most religious books are about alleged historical events that are morality stories. There is strong archaeological evidence in one hunter gather society where they cared for one of their tribe who was born with spina bifida, In other words this man could not hunt or gather. He had to be carried by the others from place to place. The bones of this man was unearthed in the last century. He lived to age of 35. Only from that age could the true story be told. That story teaches a moral story how we could always choose the right path without any Biblical authority. To suggest otherwise is to demean how well GOD created us. We have choice but the right choice for most of us is influence strongly by the biology we were blessed with. When the giving is done with love, the giver experiences a rush of endorphins. If you smile you also release endorphins. In other we have been created to be loving and welcoming by GOD. We were not born in sin. We were created with the GOD given milk of human kindness in our natures. If we fail to love each other we run the risk of motivating others to become hateful. GOD expects each of to not waist a moment of our time, and to spread love freely amongst our friends, family and neighbours. With the Net we are duty bound to spread love throughout the world to prevent the venom of hatred spreading into other peoples hearts and minds.
It doesn’t make sense to me how God cannot be a God of words when He has created humanity to communicate. Do we not talk to one another about God? Or maybe what you are saying is that we can talk to one another about God but we can’t write those words down? Or maybe you are saying that we can talk to one another but we cannot disagree with one another even when we describe differently from one another? Both of those things you have broken in this conversation: you have written down words about God and you have disagreed with my understanding of God. It seems to me that you are just as divisive as I am, and are just as dogmatic in your understanding of who God is. Am I misunderstanding your position here? Are you saying that both of our understandings of God are correct or that just your understanding of God is correct? Isn’t that divisive? That’s what is sounds like to me.
The Bible presents God differently. He tells us that He wants to be known as He is and so He has revealed Himself to us through His creation, through His words spoken to others, and primarily through His Son Jesus who came to Earth to reveal God perfectly to us and be a model of how to perfectly relate to God. He has also given the Holy Spirit so that we can properly understand His revelation to us. All of this was given so that we could know His truth from the lies that our sinfulness leads us towards. It is a lie that we can decide for ourselves who God is and relate to Him how we want to, which ultimately means we can control God.
Yes there are divisions in the Christian Church. There are two reasons for that: 1) God has made us unique and we all relate to Him uniquely. Some emphasize some aspects of God’s nature while others emphasize another. Together we reflect the infinite complexity of the nature of God. But there are some consistent truths that all true followers of Jesus are solidly founded on. On those there is no diversity; 2) There are also divisions in the Christian church because we are still fallible humans and susceptible to lies. Jesus tells the analogy of a farmer who sows good seed in His field but then in secret the enemy comes and sows weeds in amongst the good seed. We see that in the Church there are those who are not truly followers of Jesus but are planted there to try and deceive and destroy that which is true. And so there have been those who have used the name of Jesus to do terrible things that do not match what Jesus has taught. But the measure of what it means to be a Christian is not the lives of those who claim that name but what the Bible has said is true.
I agree that God is love and those who follow Him also have love and empathy and compassion. That is what has characterized the true followers of Jesus throughout history. It was the Christians who remained in villages in cities that were being decimated by the plague, risking their own lives to bring comfort to those who were suffering. It was the desire to bring truth and compassion to other cultures that motivates so many to be Christian missionaries. It was the compassion of Christians that created hospitals and services for the poor and destitute. It was the desire to spread truth and knowledge that led many Christians to start universities. Christians sacrifice themselves to care for orphans in places where disease has ravaged the adult populations.
Happy New Year Jamie:
There is one GOD but numerous books of faith. Each book attracts different groups of people. Each group of people has intentionally separated themselves from the others. When we were illiterate there was no religion but only GOD. Our GOD is not a GOD of words. If GOD was such a GOD then why would mankind have remained without the ability to read through most of his time of on this earth. Before literacy, GOD was a GOD of love. Love is a feeling more than a word. Love promotes empathy. Empathy promotes compassion. Compassion is what GOD wants us to feel for one another. Within the Christian faith there is multitude of different religions. Each one believes it possesses the Truth. Can anything be more divisive? Did GOD create this Tower of Babel or did Man?
Hi Jack, I know this conversation seems to go in circular patterns and never really accomplishes much. I am just wondering though, if you define religion as something that brings division wouldn’t that include your belief in God? You are suggesting that Christians are corrupted by false teachings from the Bible. Haven’t you made a judgement on Christians and created a division between yourself and those who follow Jesus? How is what you are declaring not also categorized as religion using your standard?
Tom:
My standards are innate or GOD given. My standards have not been corrupted by biblical false teachings. Logic also helps. Endorphins are one proof of GOD. Caring about your fellow human enough to communicate truth to her is another proof. A Mechanical Universe of cause and effect cannot explain how most humans need to find GOD. Rid the world of religion, unite the world around the One and Only GOD. GOD detests religion because it divides humanity.
Since you have no standard Jack, you can’t know.
Tom;
The Bible is work of fiction. To quote fiction is not a sin. To quote the Bible as though it were true might very well be one,