Can You Connect to God Without Religion?
Is there a difference between God and Religion? There is definitely a difference between God and religion. God is someone I have a relationship with. My view on God can be altered by many factors in my life. It can be affected by my relationship with my own father or even by my culture and the people I spend time with.
I see religion is a set of beliefs that have guidelines for behavior associated with them. There are many religions with many differing beliefs and rules. I don’t think God needs religion. He wants to have a relationship with me. It is so easy for me to get confused and think that my relationship with him has rules of engagement. I love knowing that God cares about me and that my relationship with him does not need a lot of order and structure. I want to participate in religion or church to celebrate his holiness, but it’s not a condition of knowing God. Do you believe you can you connect to God without religion?
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Vanessa L–
If I may make things a little easier for you, consider that the law of contradiction states that two things that contradict each other cannot both be true. Since you are looking for the true “religion,” then start with biblical Christianity. When you see that it is true, it will automatically eliminate all other religions and save you a great deal of time!
Anon—
You reveal in your comments the greatest hindrance to knowing the one true God by stating that “everyone wants to be a good person . . .” The problem is that apart from Jesus Christ and his righteousness, NO ONE is a good person. They only think they are in their own prideful mind. Saying that one should “investigate each religion and find the one that ‘speaks’ to you” is saying there really is no difference one from the other. Since all religions contradict each other, there can be no more than one that is “right.”
The Bible is God’s revelation of himself and Jesus Christ his Son. The only way to have a relationship with God is through Jesus Christ. Jesus himself said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me.”
Vanessa, if you do choose to explore some of the “religions or belief-systems” that exist, ask questions like (1) How did this infinitely complex universe and humanity come about and what is my role?, (2) What happens to me when I die?, (3) What are the consequences of my sin? (4) Why do I have an internal yearning to “worship”?
Please take Tom’s advice about reading (and re-read) John very seriously. In view of what He said about Himself in John, you cannot just call Him a great teacher and have to answer the question, “Was Jesus insane, a liar or who He said He was?”
Christians believe He was who He said He was, and amazingly extended to His followers the sacred privilege of calling God “Abba”, an intimate term sort of like “Daddy” and of being an adopted son of God. What it means for God to be my “Abba Father” is that, among other things, and just like a good human father:
(1) He has mercy, compassion and love for me;
(2) He has a personal interest in me and consistent concern for my well-being;
(3) He wants to provide for my needs and protect me; and,
(4) He will use His perfect knowledge, judgment and wisdom in guiding and caring for me.
In summary, He is love.
On my side, it means, among other things, and just like a good human child:
(1) I implicitly and willingly love, honor and respect Him;
(2) I am aware of my dependence upon Him;
(3) I have confidence in His judgment and trust His integrity and abilities;
(4) I am ready to obey His desires and will; and,
(5) I accept His right and responsibility to discipline me for my own good.
Now, God is not just my “Abba”, He is my “Perfect Abba” and as a perfect human parent would do, He acts, or does not act, only for my good. He does not treat me in a particular way to meet His own needs or to compensate for some imbalance in His personality. He never acts to discourage or exasperate me. And He disciplines me in love, only for my own good, and never to work out His own frustration or anger. Knowing these things are true doesn’t mean always feeling like they are, but they are 100% of the time. (The above is taken from Hunter’s book, The God Who Hears.)
Vanessa, if this is what you want in life, Deuteronomy 4:29 tells us that if we seek God with all our heart and all our soul, we will find Him.
Now, God’s infinite and perfect knowledge about all things, His infinite power and goodness and saying that He God is love raises some “hard questions” (Whence evil? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why are faithful prayers for “good things” not always answered? And the like.) We cannot answer questions like these because God in His infinite wisdom has chosen not to give us answers . . . possibly because our human brain could not grasp them. But He has told us everything we need to live a God-honoring life and I pray that goal for you.
Vanessa,
There are a lot of great people here contributing to a discussion on GOD and there seem to be a couple different viewpoints. One is based on a personal relationship with GOD (without religion)and one is based on The Bible.
I would suggest you investigate each religion and find the one that ‘speaks’ to you. You may or maynot find one, in which case, I agree with SEON that you must look within and find GOD and He is right that it is all about FAITH!
I’m not saying either one is right. I think everyone on here wants to be a good person and lead a life in sync with GODS plan.
A relationship with GOD is personal and It is something you have to practice everyday. Your intent should be to become the best ‘you’ and it is a life long journey.
I think todays youth (like you) have a hard time buying into the current momotheistic religions. They are being torn apart. I have come to learn that there are many great people out there and they do not all come from one religion. My Christian family and friends are some of the most loving, kind, considerate people I know, but I also have friends and family from other religions who are equally as great! Whether Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Catholic, Buddist, Jewish or any other religious sect, This world needs to come together!
You are on a good path, there is no rush.
One Love
Kenneth
Vanessa, I was about to reply when I saw Tom’s comments that are “right on” Let me add a comment about baptism.
Baptism is something you do after you commit your life to following Jesus and this comes about as a result of your being re-born spiritually . . . it is not something you do to get re-born but is a public proclamation that you have trusted Christ as your Lord and Savior. It comes about by an action of the Holy Spirit and symbolizes your bond with Christ, going under water as He went to death for you and coming out of water as He was resurrected (in a vague sense “re-born”) to the Father’s right hand. You “die to yourself” and are re-born as an adopted child of God to eternal life.
It also might be helpful if you would begin a personal and private conversation with one of our mentors who are experienced Christians . . . just click on the “Talk to a Mentor” button near top right of this page.
Vanessa L—
I sympathize with your struggles as growing up in a household with such varied spiritual beliefs is extremely confusing. Each person fully believes in what they practice, and unfortunately, they are usually not open to hearing anything that differs from those beliefs. Please let me try to untangle at least a little of your confusion.
If there is anything that all religions have in common (except for the true one), it is that man can somehow “do” something or be good enough on their own to arrive at their idea of heaven, or nirvana, or spiritual understanding. Man is full of pride and therefore thinks he can make that happen. However, the one true faith, biblical Christianity, teaches that there is absolutely nothing man can do to earn God’s good favor, and so God himself made a way for us to be reconciled to him and to one day be with him forever; that is through the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Our sins separate us from God and we can’t pay for those sins ourselves, so God sent his Son Jesus to pay for those sins. We need only repent (recognize our sinfulness before a holy God and admit we are lost in those sins) and put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. It’s so simple a child can understand it, but in our pridefulness we continue to seek some kind of “works” to be good in God’s sight, and deny the one true way.
The Bible is God’s revelation to us of who he is, what he has done, what he is doing, and what is still in his plan for humanity. It is his revelation of Jesus Christ. Modern translations of the Bible use the ancient manuscripts that were written in Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic, and as accurately as possible translate those languages into English so that we can read and understand them. There are minor differences in wording, but the meanings are the same. The 66 books of the Bible have been considered the actual Word of God since the end of the first century. Catholics added the books in the middle of the Bible (the Apocrypha) centuries later. While those books are considered historically accurate in what they have to say, they were never considered to be direct revelations from God.
So Vanessa L, I recommend the best place for you to start is to read the Gospel according to John in the Bible. It is the fourth book in the New Testament of the Bible, right after Matthew, Mark, and Luke. It was written for those who desire to know the truth of God and his Son Jesus Christ. John was one of those who personally walked and talked with Jesus. I would recommend using a modern English translation such as the ESV (Ensligh Standard Version), NASB (New American Standard Version), or NKJV (New King James Version).God wants you to know him and to have a personal relationship with him through Jesus.
I’ll be happy to answer any questions you have. I know God will bless you as you seek him.
Bupperzs do you really think God cares if some man in a frock dunks you in water? your relationship with the divine is between you and him, if you want to read the Bible that is your right. It’s faith that will save you not if you are baptized or not. God bless.
I’m so confused. So I am 18, just out of high school and, okay so my mother is catholic and my father is apostolic . Both have different beliefs and practices . I have grown up with both . Not a lot , but some of both. What I’m confused about is that I want to read the bible and but I’m not sure which bible I should read since currently I do NOT have a “set” religion. Also I’m a bit nervous considering I am not baptized. Because I know being baptized means one is reborn . But being baptized comes with which ever religion you are baptized in/under . I really don’t want to pick a religion yet since there are so many different ones. I guess I’m just kind of lost . I don’t know what to do really . Or how to go about changing these things ?
I’m so confused. So I am 18, just out of high school and, okay so my mother is catholic and my father is apostolic . Both have different beliefs and practices . I have grown up with both . Not a lot , but some of both. What I’m confused about is that I want to read the bible and but I’m not sure which bible I should read since currently I do NOT have a “set” religion. Also I’m a bit nervous considering I am not baptized. Because I know being baptized means one is reborn . But being baptized comes with which ever religion you are baptized in/under . I really don’t want to pick a religion yet since there are so many different ones. I guess I’m just kind of lost . I don’t know what to do really
When the taunt was written, the Jews called Adam man. Could God have been referring to man in Eden? What about the tower of Babel? Kings have tried to metaphorically reach God before, could it be a reference to his arrogance?
Not physically the king but spiritually. The passages in Isaiah and Ezekiel are referencing attributes of Satan as the spiritual leader of those nations while using the actual Kings of Tyre and Babylon as “types” or comparisons of Satan. As noted, several of the attributes could not have been those of one of the physical kings.
Wait, so satan was the king of Babylon? That’s news to me…
–The king could not have “fallen from heaven,” but we know that Satan did.
–Star of the morning is a direct reference to Satan.
–The king could not “raise his throne above the stars of heaven,” but that was Satan’s desire–to be greater than God.
–The king could not have been “in Eden, the garden of God, but we know that Satan was.
–The king could not have been a “cherub,” but Satan is.
The spiritual prince (king) of Tyre was Satan, and that cities ungodliness showed as much.
How do you know know they are talking about Satan? If you read the entire chapter for Isiah for example it is a taunt against the king of Babylon. Is that Satan?
Isaiah 14:12-15
Ezekiel 28:11-19
The “king” or “prince of Tyre is referencing Satan–the spiritual mover and shaker of that evil city.
Jamie and Tom-
Thanks to Tom’s article I get it so God created man in his own image in the sense that he breathed our souls into our bodies.
“They took pride in their beautiful jewelry and used it to make their detestable idols. They made it into vile images; therefore I will make it a thing unclean for them.”?
I didn’t see the word “Dust” there. There would have been a contradiction but Tom is right, it’s our souls that are made in his image.
Also with the book of Job, that’s not how Jews viewed the Satan character, they didn’t view him as some “Fallen angel” so the character somehow had the fall between that story and the Jesus story but where does the Old Testament mention the fall?
So when Ezekiel uses the same word to talk about idols as images of gods (Ezekiel 7:20), do you think anybody thought he meant that they actually were the gods or just representations of them? No, they knew that those idols represented the God. Similarly, humans are not divine, but are God’s representatives on Earth. So there is no contradiction between the description of being made in the image of God and being made from dust.
As far as the use of Satan in the Old Testament, it is a Hebrew word which means adversary or enemy. There are a number of places where it becomes a personal pronoun of the Enemy of God. There are many references to Satan in Job, and is obviously a use of the name of Satan like in Job 1:6 “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them.” There are also similar references to Satan in Zechariah.
As far as connecting the devil to the serpent, the Old Testament does not make that connection overtly, there are two direct connections of the serpent in the Garden as Satan in John’s Revelation; “the ancient serpent, the one called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world – was thrown down to the earth, and his angels along with him.” (Revelation 12:9), “He seized the dragon – the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan – and tied him up for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:2).
Hi Jamie,
I’m talking about the contraction of the two creation stories. One says God created man in his image and the other says god created man out of dust. When the Bible says “in our image” I take that literally.
But we are still made up of that divine breath from the divine. Yep it doesn’t mean we are God’s, just that there is a voice of god within us calling us towards him.
Where does the Old Testament mention the talking snake was Satan? I will continue reading but I doubt I’ll ever find a reference to Satan in the Old Testament.
MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD–
http://creation.com/made-in-the-image-of-god
I don’t see a contradiction Seon. We reflect the character of God but that doesn’t mean we have the same attributes as Him. We create but not to the degree that God does. We love and enjoy relationship but we could never have relationship with everyone who has ever lived lie God can. We have authority over the Earth but not in the same way that God does because it was delegated to us by God. We do have an eternal spirit given to us by God but we are not spiritual beings. When Michelangelo painted a picture of his likeness did anybody think that the painting was actually Michelangelo or was even the same substance as Michelangelo?
Our souls are a gift from God, breathed into us at Creation. You remember my description of the Hebrew words for ‘breath’ are also translated ‘spirit’? So in Genesis 1 we read that the the Spirit of God hovered over the deep. In Genesis 2 we read that God breathed the breath of life into the man. This is a different word then is used to describe the breathing of animals; it is God’s impartation of our spirit. So in as much as God is Spirit and He has given us a spirit, that is a similarity. That is not to say that we have a divine nature, because God is clear that there are no other gods. Angels are also spiritual beings but they are not divine.
That was the lie that Satan used on Eve and Adam in the Garden of Eden when he said that God had refused to let them eat of the fruit of the knowledge of Good and Evil because then we would be just like Him. We can never be like God, but we were created to have a unique relationship with Him.
I think our souls are made up of the same stuff that god is made up from. Have you ever pondered what souls are made from?
Well then there is a contradiction. If Gods created men in their own image (the Genesis verse uses the term “Us”) and God is spirit but created man out of dust then the two verses can’t be true, can they?
I’m with Kenneth here, God loves everyone and I believe their is a divine spark within everyone. Some people just bury that divine spark deep inside them but it’s still there in all of humanity.
Hi Seon, I can see how you might get that idea that God is dust but I don’t think that fits for the overall picture we have of God. Jesus said, “God is Spirit” (John 4:24) and that makes sense of the way God interacts with humanity throughout the whole Bible. He is not a part of the Natural World even though He is actively involved with the Natural world He has made.
When you say that there is a divine spark within everyone, what do you mean?
Hey Jamie,
Then the question (based on my reading of the first two chapters) arises if the gods made man in their image, are they made of dust?
I also think having domain over the animals is a huge responsibility and we should protect them and not mess up their (or ours) environment. Yep far too many people have made God in their own image. That we both agree with. Have you noticed God seems to hate the very people some believers hate and love the very people they love? I still don’t believe in original sin though.
Jamie get your head out the book and you will see gods love everywhere.
I see it everyday from the man who gave the homeless man some food
To a kid running into a gas station because and old lady fell off her bike and he went to get bandaids.
I see it when my nephew breaks down to me today to ask for help getting off heroine.
I see it when my ex wife rises above all the crappy selfish things I’ve done when I just opted to do oxy until I o’d and left out of their lives for 5 years but she has always kept faith and hope that their dad would return. (And I did :) she never said one bad word about me.
When I became homeless, the first night I stayed int car and it got chilly at night. A very kind hearted homeless man took me under his wing. The first night I said ‘bud it gets cold at night how do you sleep outside. He said “run your engine at night” I said I have no gas for that and this homeless guy I just met pulled out $5 and said go get gas. Blew my mind.
Man there’s lots of love out there. Let’s be the ones setting the example
Hi Jamie.
I truly think god would like is to listen more and pray less.
Yes God is within us all and is a great sounding board if you do not know the right thing to do and it’s not like conversations. God won’t give you the answers, that’s each persons/soul responsibility to find the answers the truth.
It’s so hard for people to comprehend how perfect this world/universe is with all the horrible things we see and hear on the news, hear familys spew hatred, people intentionally perpetuating hate. But it’s all part of this really cool plan and all this has to happen for an organic purification.
And one day the things you thought were horrible May have been a blessing.
I agree Kenneth, God’s love is evident everywhere we look, not just in the accounts we have recorded in the Bible. There is also hate and evil in the world and the Bible helps us to understand where that comes from. Helps us avoid the misunderstanding that some have that God is the source of both love and evil. That’s why a written revelation is so important; without it we could be much more easily swayed by deception.
What did you mean when you thought to yourself that you would ask Jesus into your heart and accept Him as your Lord and Savior? ‘Savior’ implies that you require rescue; what do you think you need rescue from? ‘Lord’ implies authority; in what way were you looking to submit to the authority of Jesus in your life?
Hi Jamie.
I watched those videos earlier on the day and they did touch me very deeply. I l literally cried with joy and was sobbing quite a bit. Yelling at the video ‘I love you guys!” Blowing them kisses. It was a very spiritual and impactful morning. I enjoyed it shared the vids and went about my day.
Then when it came to meditation/prayer/deep thinking time I said to myself “if you are not afraid of anything, then right here right now ask Jesus into your heart and accept him as my lord and savior. I expected to feel this warmth come over my body or some earth shattering epiphany to hit me but it didn’t.
I think Jesus was trying to tell me you can feel my love all around. Honestly though, and you’re not gonna like it (that’s why I left this out of the original post) but I swear god would not let Jesus into my heart like god was protecting me. Wierd huh. I’m the devil that’s it. Love you all though
Yep I feel the love in those chapters but not the one’s where he sends bears to eat children alive. I also see the fact that he wants his creations to be good. But the Bible never specifically states the creatures God created will forever stay in their form. And does the Adam and eve story explain how god created man in his image? if so is god dust?
Hi Seon, you have picked up on something that others have also speculated about in regards to the Creation account: is it possible that Adam was one of many men that were created. One of the things to be aware of in the Genesis account is that in Hebrew the word we translate “man” is “adam” so you will notice some discrepancies between the different translations when “man” is used and when the proper noun “Adam” is used. Often “adam” has the direct article “ha’adam” and most translators will then use “the man”. But you can see how the name given to Adam is directly represents all mankind, and in the case of the first chapter of Genesis, “adam” refers to all humankind, male and female alike.
You will notice there is a different progression in the process of Creation in chapter 1 and 2, and there are a number of ways that people have tried to interpret that. As you can see from my previous post, my preferred interpretation is to see chapter 2 as a more nuanced explanation of the Creation account in chapter 1. It highlights the call of humanity to form and fill the Earth. However you do interpret it though, it is clear that the rest of the Bible recognizes Adam as the very first human created. Throughout the Bible our common ancestry through Adam is clear through the genealogies in both the Old and New Testament, and through the understanding of original sin; Paul wrote, “the first man, Adam…” (1Corinthians 15:45) So I don’t think there is any room for an interpretation that suggests that Adam was one of many men who were created.
The “Imago Dei” (Image of God) is a central part of the understanding of the relationship between humanity and our Creator. There are many ways that we reflect the likeness of God. Remember though, as I mentioned before, that image of God upon us has been broken and marred since our rebellion against God began; so while we still maintain those attributes, because of our separation from God, we often use those attributes for our own selfish purposes rather than what God has originally intended. The best understanding of how resemble the likeness of God is in our role as representatives of God in Creation. The mandate God gave humanity was to have ‘dominion’ over it; that is delegated authority and puts humanity in the role of bringing all Creation under the authority of God. Now in our fallen state, we strive to bring Creation under our own authority, and as well look at the condition of our world, it is clear that our path is one that leads to destruction and corruption. When Jesus came He perfectly modelled how we are to use the authority delegated to us to bring all of Creation under the authority of God. He said that everything he did and said was directed by God the Father (John 5:19, 8:28) For those who follow Jesus, He will lead them to do likewise, perfectly fulfilling the role of representing God here on Earth. That will find its completion when we are made perfect in His presence for all eternity.
I read the beginning of genisis. Every time God creates something it says “And he saw it was good” but I do have a problem, God created man on the 6th day in “our” own likeness (whatever that means) but then in the next passage he creates man out of dust from the ground. Were they other men still around when God created Adam out of dust in Eden?
That’s a good question Seon. There are different opinions on this but when I read in the 10 Commandments “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.” (Exodus 20:11) it doesn’t fit for God to base His law on something that was figurative. So I am very comfortable with the literal 6 days of Creation. Did you notice the progression of God’s creation? God took that which had no form and began bring order and structure to it: He starts with Light and separates it from the Darkness, He creates the sky and separates the water below from the water above (water vapour), He then creates the land and separates it from the waters and causes the plants to grow. All of this is laying the framework for life in the first three days. Then in the second three days He begins to fill those realms that He created: He fills the Light and Darkness with the heavenly bodies, the stars, the Sun, the Moon. He then follows that up with filling the waters with the sea creatures and the air with the flying creatures. On the sixth day He fills the land with all the animals, and finally, when it is all prepared He creates the ones for whom He made all of this: humanity. All of this He made so that we would have a place to live to experience relationship with Him. As bearers of His likeness He calls us to continue His action of forming and filling the Earth. The act of Creation is a crescendo of God’s love with the repeated “He saw that it was good” until He finally creates the ones for whom He made all this and in a beautiful climax that declares “And God saw everything that He had made, and behold, it was very good.” (Genesis 1:31) Don’t you see this as an act of love and celebration?!
In the second chapter we see further detail of the creation of humanity with some different nuances and emphasis from the first chapter. It begins with the description of God’s rest from the completion of Creation. It speaks of God’s enjoyment of what He had made, and how that was the purpose for His creation. You can see how extravagant He was in the abundant variety in the world He had made for us, so you know that part of His enjoyment was to generously pour out His blessings on us. The description of the beauty of the Garden of Eden and all the resources that He made available there helps us to see His pleasure in providing a bounty for humanity. So as He made the Man out of the dust and breathed life into him, we see in more detail the difference between humanity and the rest of Creation: God formed all the creatures out of the dust of the ground but it was humanity alone who received the breath of God. In Hebrew breath is ruach and is also translated spirit. In the first chapter and second verse we read that ruach elohim, the Spirit of God, hovered over the waters. So part of the uniqueness of humanity is the eternal spirit that we received at our creation. The word pictures use here are incredibly intimate and full of God’s direct connection with humanity.
God further depicts His mandate for humanity to fill the Earth. Man could not fulfill his call alone and so God makes the woman out of the man. You can almost here Adam telling this story to his children, his grandchildren, and his great grandchildren for generations with love in his eyes and he looks at Eve, “This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh” (Genesis 2:23-24) This reflects the character of God to be in relationship, to love.
In these first couple of chapters you can see the love of God being poured out towards humanity. It sets the scene for the unthinkable action of our abandoning God, but it also paints the hopeful picture of what our eternal existence with God will be if we repent of our rebellion and trust in His act of rescue.
Can’t you feel the love of God from these chapters?
Possibly, it is the weekend. But the trouble is the 7 days God took to create the universe. Is it 7 literal days or time periods? Did God literally create man from mud and woman from man’s ribs?
Some good guidelines of how to approach the Bible are to consider the genre of the literature of a given document: historical narrative, laws, didactic (instructive) epistles are typically intended to be taken literally, while poetry, prophecy, and apocalyptic writings use much more imagery and metaphor and should be interpreted as such. Why don’t you just start with Genesis. As an Historical Narrative it is a straight forward read that can be taken literally and covers the beginnings of God’s interactions with humanity in a very personal way. If you would like we can go through Genesis together and look at the events described there and discuss how it reveals the character of God.
So you really believe sending she bears to rip children to shreds for mocking a bald guy is just? That’s an fed up version of justice. How exactly is original sin: being blamed for something you didn’t even do, just and fair?
Yep children don’t sometimes see how discipline is an act of love until they are more mature or have kids of their own, then they are grateful for what they were taught. But um I’m sure those kids who were eaten by the bear didn’t look back on how they were disciplined and realize it was for their own good.
If I read the Bible how do I even interpret it? Is it the word of god, is some literal and some symbolic? How do I know which parts to lovingly follow today?
There is something within our human nature that does not like discipline and judgement; we often try to reframe it as hate or cruelty. It cuts me to the core when I discipline my kids and I can see in their eyes that they think my actions are motivated by something other than love. I know that when I discipline my kids I can get it wrong and have impure motivation at times, but God does not have that problem. His judgements are always right and come from a perfect place of love. We would prefer not to see Him judge and think we can live as we please with impunity, but if He did that He would be acting corruptly.
That is why we need to recognize that God acts in love. Refusing to acknowledge His acts of love is close-minded. It insures that a person will see all of God’s actions as cruel. But when you are able to look at the way God has shown His love to humanity, it impacts the way that you view His discipline. That doesn’t mean that you can understand the reason why God acts in the way that He has, but you are able to trust that His actions are right, just and motivated by a love for all humanity.
I would invite you, Seon, to go through the Bible again, and look for the way that God shows His love for humanity. Don’t get distracted by the actions that seem cruel but seek out the ways that His love is extended to people. I can imagine that there will be a part of you that will fiercely resist that focused investigation, but I would be willing to bet that part of you would really like to see and experience the love of God. I will be praying that you listen to that part of your heart and allow God to direct your exploration.
But the Bible doesn’t mention what happened to people before Jesus came if they weren’t from Israel. Ok so some non Jews were saved by being allies with Israel but what if they never knew Israel even existed? That Chinese God, as interesting as it is, is your speculation that it was God’s way of reaching non Jews. And I agree, maybe it is one path to God but it’s sure not mentioned in the Bible. You formed your own conclusion there :)
Yep that God of yours loves the smell of a burnt offering. He loves watching an animal suffer so much. Such a wonderful god you worship. Oh and original sin is not justice. You say you believe in a god who values justice yet believe in original sin?
Well if he really did free the Jewish people and really was real then why would they worship a statue? It’s like “hey everyone, God hasn’t shown up so let’s worship a statue” and god is like “Come on guys I’m the real God” if he was real he couldn’t convince them to worship the true god!
Yep if people don’t listen to him he wipes them out like the ant bully to a bunch of ants.
I wouldn’t expel my child from my home if he disobeyed. I’d come down from the clouds and ground them for a few weeks.
Slavery in the Bible…that’s another example of how Christians justify an immoral act just because it is in the Bible. Nothing can ever justify owning another human being.
Elisha can’t even handle being mocked by children without sending she bears to rip them to shreds. Another example of the tyranny of the God of the Bible.
I could go on but where you see love I see a very angry and hateful war god who orders his “chosen people” to massacre entire cities of people and keep slaves and oppress women. But I still respect your right to believe under the first amendment.
Let me share with you some of the ways God shows love in the Old Testament. I don’t want to rewrite the whole thing so realize this is just a few highlights of love of humanity in general and love for individuals. Let’s start with Creation; it was an act of love that motivated God to create humanity in the first place as bearers of His image. We were created to be in a unique relationship with God that no other creature can have because we reflect His image; even the angels long to understand the unique relationship we have with God (1Peter 1:12). Another act of love was the promise of God to deal with the sin of humanity right at the point of our original sin. The first glimpse we have of Jesus dying for our sins is right there in Genesis 3; it is referred to at the protoevangelion or the ‘first good news’ when God says to Satan, “he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” (Genesis 3:15) God also showed love when He covered the shame of humanity with an animal sacrifice symbolizing how one day Jesus’ death would cover our shame perfectly. Another act of love was the choosing of Abraham as the one through whom all of humanity would be saved; God promised him, “in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” (Genesis 12:3) Through the accounts of Abraham’s life we see evidence that God was not just connecting with Abraham’s offspring; in Genesis 14 we read about Melchizedek the king of Salem who was a priest of the Most High God, who blesses Abraham, and to whom Abraham pays the first tithe. You asked for biblical evidence of how God dealt with people before Jesus, well here is a man who was not connected with the family of Abraham but had a relationship with God and as priest, helped others have a relationship with God.
You’ll notice I haven’t even gotten out of the first book of the Old Testament yet. Let’s skip to the next book of the Bible, Exodus, and talk about how God’s love was shown by rescuing the Children of Israel from being slaves to the Egyptians. The way He carefully prepared them to become a powerful nation with civil, moral, and ritual laws to help weave them into a cohesive society centred on a relationship with Him. Tied with that is the 400 years that He gave to the people of Canaan to repent from the evil of their society. Again, we see evidence that God used people outside of the family of Abraham to communicate. Balaam is a man who had a relationship with God. That is clear from the story we read in Numbers 22-24 that Balaam was used to communicating with God. Unfortunately, Balaam succumbs to his sinful nature and we read in other places in the Bible of how he plotted against the blessing of God, but that doesn’t change the fact that up to this point Balaam was recognized as a man who God spoke to.
God’s patient love is seen repeatedly in the life of the descendants of Abraham as they go against God and He draws them back into fellowship with Himself. Yes, that was often accompanied with discipline, but as any parent will tell you, discipline itself is an act of love. If a parent didn’t care about their child’s future they would just let them get away with anything. But it is out of love for the child that a parent will place boundaries of safety for their child and discipline them when they stray beyond those boundaries.
God showed love to Namaan, an enemy of the nation of Israel. He was a captain in the Syrian army which had been raiding the nation of Israel. He had a young Israelite girl that he made a slave in his home. Naaman also had leprosy and through the young Israelite slave girl he heard about how God could heal him. He went to Elisha the prophet (yes, THAT Elisha to whom you refer often) and asked for God to heal him, which He did.
I could talk about David who created beautiful poetry about the love of God; “Give thanks to the God of heaven, for his loyal love endures forever!” (Psalm 136:26) We could talk about the way God showed His love to the people of Israel through the reign of Solomon establishing peace and making them a nation sought out by other great leaders of the time, like the Queen of Sheba (2Chronicles 9). We could look at all the ways that God used to draw the people of Israel back into relationship with Himself even though they often chased after other gods and abandoned Him.
Nebuchadnezzar is another non-Israelite whom God had relationship with. We read about how God used him to discipline the Jewish people and remove them off the land of Promise. Daniel gives us a series of accounts how God communicated directly with Nebuchadnezzar even though his pride continually got the better of him. We also see God in love, discipling Nebuchadnezzar which resulted in his repentance and transformation. The testimony of this Babylonian king is a powerful statement, “King Nebuchadnezzar, to all peoples, nations, and language groups that live in all the land: Peace and prosperity! I am delighted to tell you about the signs and wonders that the most high God has done for me. How great are his signs! How mighty are his wonders! His kingdom will last forever, and his authority continues from one generation to the next.” (Daniel 4:1-3) Again, this was God connecting and rescuing a man who was the enemy of the Jews, who destroyed the city of Jerusalem, the Temple of God, and carried off the people of Judah into captivity and exile. I fully expect to see Nebuchadnezzar in Heaven when I get there because his testimony clearly reveals that his faith had switched from trusting in himself to trusting completely in God. “Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, for all his deeds are right and his ways are just.” (Daniel 4:37)
Every one of the people whom I have referred to here have experienced the discipline of God in their lives. They have faced the consequences of their rebellion against Him. But they will also tell you of how the love of God was shown throughout their lives and how their faith in Him was the only hope they had. I could go on for a very long time pointing out examples of God’s love revealed in the Old Testament. His love is always perfectly balanced with His justice, and how the only hope for anyone to be freed from the shame of their rebellion against God was to trust in His love and grace shown in the promises that He made to humanity that through the offspring of Eve, and from the family of Abraham, would come a redeemer who would set all of humanity free if they would trust in Him. Doesn’t that sound like love to you Seon?
I see god acting with love in the NT but not the OT. I don’t think the whole story can justify what he does or orders his followers to do.
Yes, we have quotes from the church fathers after the second century but no quotes in the first. So that’s about 100 years. That’s how I know the gospels were at least written after the second century. But we don’t even know who wrote them.
To me science is taking us away from faith. Just because some scientists believe it proves a god a lot more claim it proves there isn’t god. And science is far more wonderful then pretending to have the answers, I mean how did the Big Bang start? The fact that the chances of all this happening randomly is so small shows me how lucky we are and how mysterious life is.
A little correction, the oldest copy of New Testament Gospel is the Papyrus 52 fragment that includes John 18:31-33, 37-38 which has been dated 125 AD. There have been over 5800 fragments found of the Greek New Testament, more than half of which are dated prior to the 4th Century. There are also over 10,000 Latin New Testament manuscripts dating as early as the 2nd Century. If we include Coptic, Syriac, Gothic and Arabic translations we have over 25000 handwritten copies of the New Testament available to us today. Beyond that, from the writings of the Church Fathers, we have quotes that could almost completely recreate the texts of the New Testament. To suggest that the New Testament documents were written after the 2nd Century one would have to ignore the largest and most reliable historical scholars who have ever written on the subject. Compared to the amount and quality of any other ancient document, the New Testament is in a class all it own.
Also, just to clarify, it is science that is more and more consistently proving intelligent design. The Bible has always declared that but our advances in being able to study the universe in which we live has lead us back to that truth. More and more experts are adding their voices to that conclusion. Granted, not all point to the God of the Bible as the Designer, but they are unable to deny that there is no way that random natural forces can account for the evidence being discovered.
You can keep calling God a bully but you are looking at only part of the story. Can you also agree that the Bible describes God acting in a loving way to people? Both the Old Testament and the New Testament?
Nope I reject the biblical god because he is a bully and a thug and his prophets are evil too. I just follow the evidence of an afterlife and realise if people were right about an afterlife and soul they were probably right about some sort of higher power. To me the bible isn’t evidence because it is based on stories told before, there is no evidence the gospels were written after the second century, the earliest copy of the gospels is from four centuries after alleged events. It’s not about finding a god I am comfortable with it’s using my god given human reason.
Where you see evidence of intelligent design I see evidence the universe formed naturally. Science is far more incredible and offers more evidence then the bible.
You are proof that Christians justify evil just because it is in the bible. Religion makes good people commit evil when they think they are doing good. That’s real hell.
I think it is very interesting to see the shift in our world’s awareness of the divine. For the greater part of human history, people assumed that there was a God. Atheism was a very uncommon worldview. That trend changed as technology advanced and humans were able to find the causes behind the things they had just always attributed to God. Modernity and Post-modernity saw a huge growth in atheism in industrialized nations because we thought we had ‘outgrown’ the need for God. What I find intriguing is that the more we understand about our universe the more likely it appears to be designed by a super intelligence. The values of the 4 main forces governing the structure of the universe (Gravity, Electromagnetic, Strong Nuclear and Weak Nuclear forces) had to have been set within the first one millionth of a second. In order for the universe as we know it to exist, those forces could not deviate from what they are by a staggeringly small degree. The odds of those forces hitting that unbelievable sweet spot by mere chance are statistically impossible. More and more experts are recognizing that a super intelligence was active in the designing of our universe. Men like Fred Hoyle (the guy who coined the phrase “Big Bang”) said, “My atheism was greatly shaken by these developments” (quoted by Gregg Easterbrook) Theoretical Physicist Paul Davies wrote, “There is for me powerful evidence that there is something going on behind it all….It seems as though somebody has fine-tuned nature’s numbers to make the Universe….The impression of design is overwhelming” (Cosmic Blueprint, p.203)
I realize that is not yet the dominant view of scientists, but the evidence is mounting and more experts are acknowledging the truth of the idea of Intelligent Design. The next step is then to ask, “So what can we know about this Designer?” One of the things we can know about the Creator is that He/She wants to be known. The evidence of Design is proof that He/She wants Creation to know Him/Her. So how would a divine being make Him/Herself known to Creation? A written revelation is the best way to create a clear understanding of one’s character. We see that in our world when someone wants to be known they will write or have someone else write a book about their lives. And what better way of making oneself known then meeting with them face-to-face; entering into their existence to reveal oneself. Jesus said, “If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father” (John 14:9) When standing before Pilate Jesus said, “For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” (John 18:37)
There is something more at play here though: our fallen human nature does not want to acknowledge the authority of our Creator. We have within us a deep desire to be an authority for ourselves. So it makes sense that even presented with the proof like the miracles, which Jesus preformed while He was on Earth, people who saw those miracles still refused to accept Him as God. And for those of us today who are separated from those events by more than 2000 years we find even more excuses not to believe. But we cannot say that it is because of a lack of evidence. It is our unwillingness to accept that evidence. Like your reasons to reject God, Seon; you don’t understand why He has acted in judgment in some situations described in the Bible, so you reject Him. You are unwilling to admit that there are aspects to the situations that you are not aware of, and instead, you sit in judgment over the Creator of the Universe and say, “I will not accept a God who acts like that.” You create your own God, one that you can control according to your comfort level; you search through religions and pick the pieces you like. You reject that God’s inherent value justly requires a penalty for rebellion against Him. You diminish the value of the one who has made everything because you know that you would not measure up to His perfect standard, and therefore you are deserving of the eternal penalty you rail against.
But what you miss is how much God loves you. He created you to be a testimony of His love, justice, and power. He took your penalty on Himself and paid it in full. So you don’t have to face that eternal destiny which you deserve. He doesn’t corruptly do away with the demands of justice but totally satisfies them through the death of Jesus on the cross. He empowers you to be a testimony to the rest of the created order of how His love has rescued you. Will you accept His offer of grace and trust in Jesus’ sacrifice on your behalf?
Never was : ) although we were born atheist. That’s not enough evidence for most people and surly an all powerful God would understand why people don’t believe in him. So is it a crime to commit something against someone you aren’t sure exists?
Yes I suppose since God is how the universe started he is of more value. But we need proof something is a crime against him. I see what you are trying to say. *If* the God of the Bible exists and *if* the Bible is true then sinning is a crime against a being of more value and the punishment should be severe.
Seon, are you becoming an atheist again? :) I would say that God has left all kinds of evidence of Himself including becoming one of us. People who witnessed His miraculous works were still split between those who accepted His proofs and those who didn’t. Satan, who served in God’s presence still rebelled against His authority. I don’t think it is a matter of not enough proof but more about an unwillingness to submit to His authority as the Creator of all things.
My reason for bringing up the conversation you and Tom had about abortion is to point out that you make determinations between the value of a life and how a crime against a more valuable being is worthy of a greater penalty. Would you say that if God is the Creator of the Universe (which I think you have acknowledged at some points in this forum) that He is of far greater value than any of us? Wouldn’t that mean that a crime against Him is far more severe than a crime against another human, just like a crime against a human is far more serious than a crime against a mosquito?
We know for a fact those beings exist and we committed crimes against them. We can’t know for sure if there is a god or an afterlife or not. So why should we be held accountable if God doesn’t provide enough proof of his existence?
Key word unborn. Fully grown and developed human life will always have more value then unborn life. If I am selective at least I don’t claim my morality comes from the word of god and pick and choose what to follow but use human reason. Like Christians do when they decide passages in the old testament are too irrelevant or immoral to follow today.
We do respond differently when the one who is wronged is of greater value. Remember my examples of hitting a mosquito, dog, or a person with a car? The consequences are significantly more severe when the crime is against a more valuable being. God being of infinite value is the pinnacle of that progression. I believe you had a significant conversation with Tom earlier about the value of an unborn fetus in comparison to his/her mother. I think you are being selective in your application of morality.
Yeah IF people ever lived to 900. Come on, Dinosaurs living with humans, living to 900? But if faith is what helps you be a nicer person as I keep saying I am trying not to judge and tolerate it.
I think most of those people would have died when hose events were written down. Wasn’t the Bible an oral tradition at first? So how long in between when the stories were told to when they were written down? Of course if the Bible was divinely inspired like Christians claim that doesn’t matter- God told the writers. But my point is would the “witnesses” have been alive to object to the first manuscript?
By the way you touched on one of many reasons I am against the God of the Old Testament. We lived in peace and he ended that peace and harmony because we made a tower too high? Have you ever wondered why God would rather we lived in war and suffering?
I think God, whatever it is (still can’t define him or her) is of infinite value. Yes. But do we place a value on crimes? It starts a slippery slop like if someone commits a crime against a police officer should they get tougher penalties then if they did it against a scientist? Who is to decide who has more value?
Hey Ken,
I’ll check out the videos later. Faith can make genuine Christians love all of us.
Thanks for telling us about your connection to Jesus, Kenneth. So was it the videos you watched that brought about your change of mind? Or was there something else that led you to submit to Him as Lord of your life?
Those are some beautiful examples of lovingly standing up for others who are targets of discrimination. Have there been times when you have had the opportunity to take a similar stand?
Ok as my posts have said. I do not accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior but do love him. I have said I have my own personal connection with GOD and with that I will tell you something amazing that happened to me today.
As I was meditating/thinking/connecting more neurons I thought ‘today, right here right now I am going to accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior and will complete submit and ask his love to enter my heart and guide me. And so I humbly asked Jesus to enter my heart and guide my path. I didn’t feel anything. So I begged Jesus please let me feel your love I need to feel your love, please talk to me. Still nothing until something spoke to me, not like in words or a distinguishable voice but it spoke loud and clear and said;
“Do you remember that video this morning that impacted you so much you broke down and literally began trembling and balling your eyes out withy the joy and happiness you felt from the compassion and love those beautiful Christian people showed, did you feel my love then?”
Here are the 2 videos: a few of the most beautiful people to grace this planet!
http://youtu.be/6Kw8deQQjxU
http://youtu.be/wQ_BObVA5Hs
Praise Jesus.
Love you all
Hi Jamie,
That’s something we can both agree with. Plus everything that has a beginning has a cause. Yeah God has done that to me as well. I have some Christian friends that I know he sent to me to remind me you aren’t all bad.
Jamie
I know you asked seon, but I would like to share.
The forces of nature came from god, from the beginning.
Yes you can have a direct relationship with GOD. My understanding is GOD is not that much into praying. GOD would much rather you simmer down and listen. Funny story, I was talking with a beautiful Christian man and I started to pick and tear at his beliefs and right when I ‘went that route’ GOD smacked me upside the head and told me to apologize to the man and never tear anyone’s belief system down. funny part was GOD did it with total love but at the same time I could not escape GODS seriousness about it.
I usually just turn to GOD for Guidance in specific situations. Making sure my actions are helping and not hindering ‘the plan’. Most the time it’s pretty simple and it becomes second nature, but there will always be times where we need GODS help/guidance. Beauty of it is, you have free will to choose and GOD is not and will not judge you during your physical life experience but when you are on your deathbed, will you have a pure enough soul to present to GOD?
Yeah I believe we are spirits so obviously at some point in evolution the human soul was placed into humans. Maybe not at first, or maybe it was. Good points.
Seon
14 billion of our earth years just to get the first signs of life (as far as we know) and creatures evolving adapting assimilating fighting for the right to continue on. Yeah I’d say God has a major purpose. My feable brain can’t completely see the ‘end game’ but I’ve seen enough to know there is some sort of organic purification of the human soul and tremendous power. Almost like the most purest most powerful ‘conscious’ energy is being harvested for…
Hi Seon, the way the Bible presents the history of humanity, it makes sense that there are things like the ancient Chinese characters that show a remarkable link to the accounts of Genesis: the Bible says we have a shared heritage and a shared source of events of history. I know that many people would dismiss the longevity described in the Bible of the lives of humans prior to Abraham, but if they are true, the accuracy of those shared stories is understandable. Adam was said to live 930 years and when he was 700 years old his great, great, great, great, great grandson Methuselah was born. Methusaleh lived right up to the time of the Flood (969 years) and was about 400 years old when his grandson, Noah, was born. Noah’s son Shem was about 150 years old when the Flood happened and lived until he was 600. He was still alive when Abraham died (Abraham lived 175 years). So there are only 4 degrees of separation from Adam to Abraham, and the accounts of the significant points of human existence in those early years (Garden of Eden, the Fall, the Flood, the Tower of Babel) could have been easily verified by eyewitnesses to those events. You can bet that Noah and his offspring would have told their descendants about the Flood, and about the Fall of humanity. When the Tower of Babel occurred and people spread across the face of the Earth, those stories would have gone with them. That’s why it is not uncommon to discover similar stories of a global flood from many different cultures, or that the ancient Chinese characters seem to have a familiarity with stories from Genesis. I know that many people would dispute the accuracy of those events described in the Bible but the evidence seems to suggest otherwise.
Seon, awhile ago I was explaining about the infinite value of God and how human rebellion against that infinitely perfect God requires an infinite penalty. If God refused to deal with our sin He would be acting in a ‘less-than-just’ manner; or in other words, a corrupt judge. Would you agree that the more valuable the victim, the more severe the penalty must be? Would you say that God, as the Creator of all that is, perfect in all He is and does, is of less then infinite value?
Hi Jamie,
When I was an atheist (or thought I was) I would have said just because something looks like it was created doesn’t make it so. But since I believe in a creator now I see your point. He could have a purpose. Or he or she could have created us to observe life through us. Lots of religions and philosophies claim to have the reason. I just keep praying for answers.
Yes, some prideful people have fallen but what about the one’s who don’t get what they deserved? There has been no justice for those who took part in the tiananmen square massacre. The Chinese government did nothing. In Rwanda gangs murdered their neighbors. They got a few years in jail if any. Many of the thugs are out now. In India people are being oppressed just because of their caste (which Buddha opposed) God isn’t saving them. Priests who molest children are still getting away with their crimes. If God set up a system where people receive justice he is failing. Plus I don’t believe God set up the justice system. Man did, and as you know we are not perfect.
See, you proved my point. Most people would read the story of Elisha and be horrified. But Christians justify it. I can show you many more examples. What more is there to that story or of the story of the man killed for gathering sticks?
The Bible is supposed to be the word of God. So if God somehow told the writers the story he could have told them the whole story, yet this is what he wants us mere mortals to know.
So what does the Bible say happened to those born before him?
God is the creator of the universe. So in his infinite wisdom he could have found out another less barbaric way of connecting with him. But the Bible clearly says he loves the smell of a poor animal being burnt alive. Think about it. That is the same God of the New Testament.
Wow Shangdi is interesting, I don’t believe there is one path to God but maybe that was God’s way of reaching out to the Chinese people who had no way of knowing about Israel.
Well I don’t see great unity and beauty, I just see a tyrant jealous sociopath who loves smiting people who don’t agree with him.
Hi Jack,
What evidence is there that the universe had no beginning? The evidence points to the big bang but maybe there is evidence the universe is eternal as well…
While I know there are some who would like to think that the universe is infinite, Jack, the Laws of Thermodynamics say that it is impossible. If the Universe were infinite, entropy would have brought the energy within the universe to a equilibrium of absolute zero temperature at some point in the infinite past, with no motion at all. Obviously that is not the case in our Universe so therefore our Universe had a beginning. I know that in the past you have stated that the energy within our Universe is reactivated by the collision between the infinite number of other universes in the multiverse. But as I have said to you before, unless the infinite multiverse has different laws of thermodynamics then our universe, it would still be subject to entropy and the result would be the same: at some point in the infinite past an equilibrium would have been reached at zero Calvin. Now if you want to suggest that the Laws of Thermodynamics do not apply to the rest of the multiverse you would have to have some sort of proof that there even is a multiverse and then prove that the natural laws there are different. As it is, there is absolutely no proof; it is just wishful thinking of people who refuse to acknowledge the clear reality that our Universe is not infinite.
The so called ‘Goldilocks Planets’-those planets that have the right conditions for life-are becoming more of a statistical anomaly as our investigation of the requirements for life to exist increases. Currently experts have identified over 200 factors vital for life to exist on a planet. If any one of those were missing, life on that planet would be impossible. The statical analysis of the known universe based on that understanding suggests that life in the universe is rare indeed. Peter Schenkel, a member of the Interplanetary Society, wrote, “In light of new findings and insights, we should quietly admit that the early estimates [of the number of planets capable of supporting life] may no longer be tenable.” (SETI Requires a Skeptical Reappraisal)
It seems Jack, that you are projecting your own frailty on the Divine. A God who requires entertainment sounds like a weak minded God indeed. The Bible suggests that God has existed in a perfectly unified and harmonious community of Father Son and Spirit for all of eternity. He is completely self-sufficient. He does not have needs that require input from His Creation. He creates because it is His nature to create. It is an expression of His perfect love that He has made us to have relationship with Him. He is not some cosmic slacker who needs outside stimulation to experience completeness. I think you have been watching too many Star Trek episodes.
Astronomy informs us that we live within an eternal universe. This universe will be reincarnated in several trillion years. Galaxies and solar systems with GOLDY LOCK planets will have sentient beings on them. Why are we here for an eternity? Simply because we were put here to perform. All the World is indeed a stage. We are no more than entertainment for the angels. Eternity and mortal life are terribly boring in the absence of entertainment.
Seon, do you really believe there is no purpose for Creation? Is that something that corresponds to the reality we observe? When someone creates/builds/invents something it has a purpose; necessity is the mother invention, right? It does not make sense that God would create this universe without a purpose intended. That just doesn’t seem consistent with the evidence we see in what He has created.
I see all kinds of evidence of God addressing injustice. First is the evidence that you have pointed out, our moral conscience; we have this innate knowledge of what is right and wrong, and a sense of justice that recognizes when things are not right. God has also established societal systems that respond to evil and injustice, so that evil people are held accountable for the ways they hurt others. We also see divine judgement in situations where God defends the oppressed and the needy. That is a little more difficult to identify because we don’t actually see the God passing down a sentence, but we see evil men eventually receive recompense for their cruelty. How many megalomaniacs have come and gone through this world but ultimately they all fail in their plans. One day we will see their ultimate demise as they stand before the Divine Judge and receive their final penalty for all they have done.
I know that sometimes the record of ways that God has dealt with nations, groups or individuals seems exceedingly harsh. But first we can admit there is likely more to the story then what we have access to. God has an infinitely fuller picture of any given situation than what you or I have, and therefore much more qualified to make judgements. The Bible is not a document written to justify the actions of God: He is the Creator, He has the omniscience in all circumstances, and the perfect moral purity that always does what is right. The purpose of the Bible is to give us a clear picture of how our relationship with God was broken and presents the lengths that He has gone to in order to restore that relationship with us. Stories like the one about Elisha and those young people who were eaten by the bear helps us to realize how important the revelation of God is; even the ones chosen as messengers of that Word of God are not to be disrespected.
Seon, have you ever been in a situation where you were privy to information about a given situation that others did not have access to? I have seen it happen many times where people who only had part of the story would rise up and cry, “Injustice!”. But when they hear the full story, their opinions drastically change. Don’t you think an unlimited God would have more information about situations than you? You are making a judgement about that God without all the evidence. Look at the full presentation of the nature of God. A God whose love leads Him to taking on our frailty and then suffering by taking all of our evil, cruelty, and selfishness upon Himself is a God that will not arbitrarily inflict pain on those for whom He died.
Jesus death was sufficient to cover the sins of the whole of humanity, even those who had died before He was born in Bethlehem. It was His death that was symbolized in the coverings given to Adam and Eve. You will notice that long before the ritual sacrifices given by God through Moses that there is still animal sacrifices being described as a way of connecting with God. All of that was a claim to the promise that God would one day perfectly cover the sins of the whole world through the Messiah. There are even hints that other people from other cultures were connecting to God even though they were not descendants of Israel. The Bible does not fully explain how God was working this out throughout the world, but evidence of that shared heritage is clear in many ancient cultures. Have a look at this guys presentation of how ancient Chinese characters reveal an awareness of the stories told in the bible https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA-AkJzpKmg.
There are always going to be things that don’t make complete sense to me; I am only able to respond to things that I am capable of understanding. But when you look at the whole presentation of God in the Bible I see a great unity and beauty.
Hi Jamie,
That’s the thing though. Who says there is a purpose? What if God just created the universe so he can fulfil his purpose?
Yes. Look at the injustices in this world. Do you really think God or karma is doing anything about them? Some of those are carried out by so called holy men as well. They don’t receive justice. Karma is just our fantasy that something bad will happen to people who mistreat us and hell speaks to our desire to see people who receive lenient sentences or get away with murder get punished. I’d love it if God made sure everyone received justice. I’d be the first to worship that god.
The followers of your god carry out evil thinking they are doing good. That is why I oppose Old Testament justice. For example, Elisha sending she bears to eat 40 children just for mocking him. A bit overkill don’t you think? Now believers would try to justify that saying they were threatening him (even though the Bible doesn’t mention he felt threatened) but non believers see that story for what it is. A chilling example of a bully getting his god to murder 40 children. Not to mention the morning and pain and suffering caused by this one act.
Also, no matter what Tom thinks slavery is evil no matter what. We all agree but believers justify this evil when it happens in the Bible and claim it is different.
I can go on and on. Also you touched on “Biblical justice” the children of Adam and Eve did nothing yet they were punished for something they never did. That is not justice.
And before Jesus people went to hell just for being born at the wrong time. What kind of God creates people only to send them to hell with no hope of being saved n this life?
And Jesus was God, so what sacrifice did he make exactly? Being tortured on the cross?
There’s also a purpose in all of the major religions and if they all make sense when you put them all together.
I don’t like the evil in the Bible, or Koran for that matter I don’t discriminate.
Also regarding morality I believe God gave us our conscious but we won’t get morals from the bible or koran. Maybe we can pick and choose the nice warm and fuzzy parts but why bother when it is something inherit in all of us despite what we believe?
Seon, do you really think God doesn’t justly punish those who do wrong? Isn’t that a tell-tale sign of corruption in human leadership? On one hand you are identifying that God has given us an internal moral compass but then you say that He does nothing about when we ignore those moral standards? That does not make sense.
I agree that God is the same in the Old Testament and the New Testament, although I wouldn’t characterize Him as a bully. Yes, He does hold people accountable when they take advantage of those who are in need. Yes, He does punish those who follow immoral religious rituals like sacrificing children to idols, undermine purity of marriage with sexual promiscuity, and follow gods that are actually demonic and evil. But He is the one who is best able to make the judgements of how to deal with people’s sin; He is the standard of what is moral and He knows everything, even the hidden thoughts of the heart. It is His role to extend justice and if He abdicated that role it would be a sign of corruption.
His justice is perfectly balanced by His love. You can see it from the very beginning of humanity’s rebellion against Him: He did extend justice for Adam and Eve’s rejection of Him but then provided a prophecy of how He would rescue them from their sin and covered their shame with the first animal sacrifice, that prefigured how our sin would be covered by the death of Jesus. God’s love continued on reaching out to us even when we persistently resisted Him. His patience is seen in allowing the people of Canaan 400 years to get right with Him. The Old Testament helps us to understand the seriousness of our sin and how we are unable to deal with it on our own; all the while pointing to the day when Jesus would come and rescue us, and extending grace to anyone who put their trust in that promise.
All of that culminates in the coming of Jesus. God left His own divine reality and entered fully into ours by becoming one of us. He then sacrificed Himself in order to set us free from the penalty of our rebellion against Him. And now He lives to bring us new life, to lead us to live as He created us to, and to secure our place with Him forever.
You see it is a cohesive purpose that weaves itself throughout the pages of the Bible. It connects to our reality and is consistent in its application of its themes. You may not like the parts that point out humanity’s issues and the consequences of our resistance against God’s authority in our lives, but when you compare it to any other worldview it consistently answers the four questions in a way that corresponds to what we observe and know. I challenge you to show me any worldview that has a better way to answer those questions. Even the things you identify as not believing in (talking snakes, magical arks) fit into a consistent presentation of a spiritual realm around us that is unseen but often intersects with our physical reality and impacts our lives significantly. All of it fits!
Hey Jamie,
Maybe there is no absolute truth, just that God created us and religion is man’s attempt at connecting with God (But we don’t need religion to do that). Just because justice requires consequences for evil doesn’t make that so. An example is we get angry when people do not receive just sentences, like when rapists get lenient sentences. Who is to say that we receive justice?
True, for all I know my personal view of God is wrong. He could be the tyrannical bully of the Old Testament or Koran- But I hope not!
I tried reading the gospels and tried the whole Jesus thing. But something kept bothering me: The God of the New Testament is the same bully of the old one. Plus this shows when Jesus told his disciples they had to hate their parents and their own life (it was clear he meant literally hate)
And also I don’t think I answered the question in your last email. I disagree with religions when they teach we are sinners or have bad karma, I believe there’s nothing wrong with us. I don’t believe in talking snakes or a magical ark that had dinosaurs magically teleported into it. We aren’t evil beings who need saving.
Seon, as I am reading back through our conversation I feel like I need to address something. I am going to be a little more bold than I usually am, but I don’t mean this in a condescending way at all, although I can understand it might not come across that way. As I read the things you have posted here I don’t see your answers coming together in a cohesive, unified worldview. On one hand you say that God does not communicate with us when we are searching out morality. But when you talk about our meaning and purpose you say it is our responsibility to listen to the voice of God. You say that we all search for our own truth but later you admit that there can only be one truth. You agree that God is perfectly righteous and just but you refuse to accept the reality that justice requires consequences for evil. When you put it all together you get a mishmash of ideas that don’t connect with one another. They are more of a collection of your own ideas rather than any consistent revelation of the divine.
If I can be so bold, the Bible addresses this very thing, “There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way that leads to death.” (Proverbs 14:12) If you create a god that fits what you are comfortable with, doesn’t that make you into a tradition that one day, someone else will see as confining? Just because God doesn’t fit your preconceived ideas of how He should be, does that mean He is not real…that He is not right?
Let me invite you to take a fresh look at the Gospels. Ask God to help you know Him as He is. Put His answers to the four questions to the tests of logical consistency, empirical adequacy, and existential relevance; see how they measure up. Lay aside your a priori distrust of the message of Jesus and evaluate it anew. I will be praying for you. In fact let me do that now: Jesus, I know You love Seon. You have been revealing Yourself to him in so many different ways. I pray that You would lead him to Your truth and let him know Your presence with him. Amen.
Again, let me say, I know this could come across as condescending, but please believe that it comes from one who only wants you to experience the freedom and joy of knowing Jesus. If I failed in communicating it in that way please write it off as a passionate fool and don’t let it be another reason to dismiss all Christians. I do enjoy our conversations here.
Seon, it seems like you are suggesting that anyone who follows a religious tradition is doing so blindly without seriously investigating it. Do you really think that is accurate? Are only those who reject all religious traditions the ones who are serious about investigation?
All worldviews must be able to answer four foundational questions: 1) How did I get here? [Origin]; 2) Why am I here? [Meaning]; 3) What is right and wrong? [Morality]; 4) What happens when I die? [Destiny]. Those four questions must be logically consistent, empirically adequate (corresponds to observed reality), and it must be relevant to our existence. It is my opinion that only Christianity answers those questions in a coherent way that matches historical evidence and our observable reality. John summarizes the Bible’s answer to those four questions in the prologue to his Gospel account of the life of Jesus:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. [Origin] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, [Destiny] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. [Meaning]
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth… And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; [Morality] grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.
Hi Jamie,
I’m glad you at least look up what I recommend. While it’s true input from others are a factor- especially at seeing the positive ways faith has changed peoples lives, I still disagree and think it’s up to us to listen to the voice of god. Plus as you know blind faith can make us believe anything and give all our money to charlatans. So while other people are still important you should still research the evidence for what you believe (I admit there isn’t 100% proof of reincarnation)
To answer your question there can only be one truth. So obviously someone is wrong. I’m not sure what the truth is yet. I know there is a god who loves us so to me all faiths posses some truth.
Love for others is noble and pure attribute. Jesus said that the second greatest command is to love your neighbour, and he clearly lived that out in His life here on Earth.
My problem is I can’t love others very well because I get caught up in loving myself more and I make choices that serve me more than serving other people. Maybe you don’t have that issue Jack, but if entering Paradise requires me to love other people I am in trouble.
I have also found that loving people is complicated. Is it love to let an alcoholic or drug addict continue to pursue their addiction? Does love put one person at risk in order to protect another? And how do I know if my love for someone else isn’t just a veiled attempt to selfishly fulfill my own needs.
That is why I am so glad I don’t have to try and pull this off on my own. As I focus my attention on Jesus and follow His leading in my life I have the confidence that He will always give me perfect directions. And as my relationship with Him is my first priority, He transforms me so that I have more pure love to share with others. I think that is why He said that the greatest commandment is to love God. When that primary relationship is healthy it makes the other commandments, like love others, a natural outflow of who He has made me to be.
To save your soul, you must try to save at least those souls that you can care for. To be primarily concerned with how you will be judged makes you overly self centred in GOD’s eyes. When you become a parent, your concern about how you will be judged by GOD becomes less important to you. You want your spouse and your children to be the main pre occupation of the All Mighty. This unconditional love for them will motivate them to look after you when you become old and enfeebled. The more you become concerned with the souls of others the more you have a real chance of entering Paradise.
I am not sure I understand the distinction Jack. Are you saying that you, as a part of a particular nation, are punished for the evil done by others within that nation? Does that mean that your only hope for a lesser punishment is to try to do as many good deeds as possible to counter balance the evil? Does that also mean that evil will receive lesser punishment because of the off-setting good actions being done? How would that work itself out? Wouldn’t the people who were doing the good deeds get frustrated that they still are receiving punishment for the lunkheads who were doing evil? And wouldn’t the cruel ones continue to do evil because their punishment was being offset by those who were doing good? Don’t you think it would be likely that some of the people doing good would get fed up with trying so hard to make things right but still getting punished that they would soon lose the motivation to do good? It sounds to me like you are describing a ‘moral socialism’; I don’t see that as an effective way to promote morality.
GOD looks at humanity as tribal. It matter very much to GOD, how each of us makes our neighbourhood, city, our country more caring. GOD punishes nations not individuals.
So Seon, you would agree with most religions and worldviews that it is up to us to clean up our lives, fix what is broken, to earn our place with God? What is the minimum standard that is required? Can God overlook at little bit of evil?
I did the search you recommended and came up with a lot of links to Baha’i materials that emphasize the requirement for all humans to acquire knowledge with their own eyes. Is that what you wanted me to look at? The sites I looked at were suggesting that there is one truth and through our individual investigation we each will discover our facet of the many different faces of truth, and ultimately be drawn into unity. Is that what you have observed happen in this world? People with contradictory ‘truths’ drawn into unity with one another? Are you suggesting that where there is disharmony between individuals that true ‘truth’ has not been discovered? If one person’s personal investigation leads them to a truth that creates conflict with another person are both individuals wrong or could one be right and the other wrong?
I also find it curious that all traditions are rejected as possible truths. No one could do an investigation in perfect isolation. Any investigation must include input from others. Why would it be necessary then to reject all tradition which is the accumulation of other people’s investigation for truth? I am not advocating a blind acceptance of tradition without investigation, but the odds of finding truth is much better through the accumulation of truth of many people’s investigations over years as opposed to me finding truth by myself. The statements I read seem to suggest that anybody aligning themselves with a certain tradition has abandoned their own search for truth. In my opinion such a broad judgement is closed-minded. I know many people who have painstakingly investigated truth and discovered that within a given tradition.
Sorry, I guess I should have let you acknowledge that I was looking at the material you intended before I go off like that :) If I missed the links you wanted me to find let me know what you did intend and ignore all the previous questions and critiques.
I believe Reincarnation helps us learn lessons and develop our souls. Sure, life is suffering but there is so much to learn. I’m not sure how to break free though. If I knew I would be spreading it.
Yep the true nature of god is an important question and I believe we should all come to the answer by ourselves and try everything. Google independent search for the truth to see what I mean. By the way I tried connecting with spirit guides but never got a validation.
Other faiths teach love as well and teach their followers can know God. God’s creation is so beautiful, how would it be humiliating for him to become the universe? (one theory I have researched)
Yeah and Christianity is the only faith that says it’s founder was God and that God came down and tried to connect with humans. So I agree it is a unique faith.
I don’t think any spirit guides exist, they may be angels but there is a reason we can only imagine spirit guides in mediation…