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I have a difficult time with the word submission. Can you explain just how submissive a wife should be towards a husband without losing her identity and respect? I am not sure where the boundaries are even. It seems like every time I open my mouth I get into trouble because he feels am dividing the family in some way and making him have no authority.
Today the kids were eating a hamburger in the car, and they were looking for a drink. My husband says to the kids, “Grab your bottle of water” (they keep a bottle in the car at all times). Well, I remembered I had a can of soda in my purse, so I gave it to them, and he says I undermined his authority! I didnt think it was a big deal, but he did.
Our lines of communication keep getting crossed and its a problem and is causing major conflict. How do you communicate with your spouse? Plus this submission thing. Can you explain just briefly (yeah, right) a little on these matters? I need help!
Advice: It sounds like you and your husband need to go back to the basics of improving your communication and coming to terms with how you discipline and work together as a team with the children.
The passages on submission and headship in the Bible (Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3) emphasize the importance of love, consideration and respect between spouses. In this context, it is always important to note that power and control should not characterize the marriage relationship. Colossians 3:18-19 reads, “Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them.” Ephesians 5:22-29 (excerpts) says, “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church…(25), Husbands, love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her… husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies…” (I encourage you to read the whole passage).
Pastor Ray Pritchard’s sermon, “Men and Women in Biblical Perspective” deals with this issue quite well. This sermon would be good for both of you to read, think about and discuss.
Pastor Ray writes: “Headship” means that God has called the man to lead his home—and will therefore hold him personally responsible for what goes on in his home. The emphasis is on responsibility and accountability, not on authority and power.”
There are times when a wife cannot submit when it means relinquishing God’s standards or means giving up her safety in the case of domestic violence. Sarah told Abraham to get rid of Hagar (his other wife/concubine) and God backed her up saying to Abraham “do what she told you.” Yes, there are instances where wives stood up for what is right and did not submit. Yet, in 1 Peter 3 it says that Sarah obeyed Abraham in everything.
In your situation, you and your husband need to come to mutually agreeable terms about how to raise and discipline your children together.
Submission is a word which can be described/defined as “willing conciliation.” That means that the wife should be “willing,” not coerced. Wives are to respect their husbands. Husbands are to be considerate of their wives. Both partners should be willing to “put the other’s interests above his/her own” as Philippians 2 describes. The woman should be willing to submit to her husband not be unwilling or forced. The man should be a loving, servant leader – accountable and responsible to God and his family. A loving leader leads –doesn’t manipulate or pressure. A submitter doesn’t “take over.”
Aquila and Priscilla are wonderful role-model of how a couple can work together harmoniously as a team. In Acts they taught Apollos and led him to Christ – offering hospitality to believers and were co-workers with Paul.
Marriage should be mutual servanthood and treated as a ministry. Larry Crabb talks about this principle in his book on marriage.
I encourage you to ask your husband to go to counseling with you or to talk with your Pastor. It sounds like there are power and control issues between you. These issues are very destructive.
Read a good marriage book together or attend a marriage conference such as: Christian Prep or a Family Life seminar/conference.
These books will help you understand each other and learn some better communication skills:
- A Lasting Promise: A Christian Guide to Fighting for Your Marriage, by Scott Stanley, Howard Markman, Susan Blumberg, Dean Edell.
- The Five Love Languages: How to Express Heartfelt Commitment to Your Mate, by Gary Chapman
- His Needs, Her Needs, by Willard F. Harley.
I hope you find this helpful. It’s important that your husband and you work together about parenting issues. Talk over some of these issues and come to a mutually agreeable decision. If your husband is always making the decisions without your input and considering your opinion –then, you are headed for trouble. In Colossians 3 Paul tells the husband to be considerate of and respect his wife.
May you work this out in a loving way. God bless you!
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Thanks for taking the time to explain Judy, and to be really honest, I think that it’s not so much what the bible says, but exactly what you said, that your self-esteem was damaged so when you hear these things you put them to a filter that goes off base.
Just one example. You said ‘Men are in the image and glory of god, women are the glory of men therefore men are closer to god therefore god love men more than women therefore god loves men more than me’ I’m not sure where you got the idea that women are the glory of men. Not at all!!! IN fact in it says that we were created, male and female, in the image of God(Genesis 1:26) When it says that God made ‘man’ in the image of God, it is referring to mankind, man and woman. So you men are definitely not in any way, shape or form, closer to God nor is there any indication that God loves men more than women. In fact scripture is for all of us. One of my favorite verses is in Isaiah 62:4b where it says,’But you will be called, “My delight is in her.” God delights over you Judy!!
Your first point is also a misconception. Although wives are told to submit to their husbands(and not all women to all men) it is in the context in Ephesians 6 of the entire body of Christ submitting to one another in love. I am no more to be husband’s slave then I am to be a slave to someone else in the body of Christ.
Judy, we have wonderful online mentors that would love to take the time to go through each of your points. If you are interested in having someone email you, just fill out the form on this page http://powertochange.com/discover/talk-to-a-mentor/ and they will get in touch with you.
Hi to both of you, Thanks, Doris, for confirming my statements. Love is an action verb!
Judy, you may have picked this topic to get some healing from discussing it. That hurt you felt needs to be replaced by feelings of self-worth, of love from God and then also love from people (of both sexes). We dare not push this, for it needs to come from within you, and in God’s perfect timing.
Dear Heavenly Father, I thank You for helping me to lift Judy up for Your healing. YOU know her inmost feelings; and while we have questions and even suggestions, You are the One who alone has ANSWERS! Be her comfort, show her that she is precious in Your eyes! There is no one like her, for each person on earth is unique and special. YOU have a plan for her life, a plan that may include ministering to some people who have gone through similar negative experiences. Thank You, Lord, for lifting Judy up. Thank You for having her look in the mirror to see a beautiful person. Yes, You will put a smile on her face, a smile that expresses her deep inner joy and peace. Thanking You, we pray in the name of Jesus, our intercessor. Amen.
Dear Judy,
You must take heart that God loves you and gave His life for you.
The issue you have taken from Eph 5:22 not ends there, it is continuing in following verses and it commands husband to love your wife.
Which is greatest obedience or love?
Certainly it is love.
When your husband loves you there won’t even the question of submitting.
When you are loved,
You will love to do the things you are asked to do by your husband.
If he loves you, He will only ask you to do the right thing.
You will happy to be submissive (not the term, ‘salve’) because he loves you.
I think God has written this passage with a purpose. There can be only one head for smooth function of any institution. There can be consultation but decision should be made by one, who is holding responsibility.
One thing we need to understand one or other way we all are needs to be submissive. It is like the children submissive to the mother, mother submissive to the father, father submissive to his authority, it may be his office boss, and the office boss submissive to his owner; the cycle goes on.
I pray that your husband love you, and you will feel wonderful. The example you have quoted is not a big deal for both of you. love make everything wonderful.
Thanks,
Solomon G.
India
hi judy– i feel for you, unfortunatley submitting to their husbands is not a nice word but God did design it that way but our husbands has to love us too, we as women do want to be in control but God did make adam first then eve for men to love us and for us to submit to our husbands i wish you well. God created us from a rib so the men and women to be equal unfortunatley the world has gotten women as second class women are just as important as men. men has to toil the ground which is a pain too
Mine is not a comment, but a question….my husband tells me I am not being submissive when he tells me I can’t get up and out of bed till 6:30 AM (I am a morning person)cuz he has a routine and I get in his way. Truth is I don’t talk to him, I leave him alone, I don’t get in his way.
To all, I am new to this website and honestly will propably not be back. The comments you are making here are frustrating, to put it kindly.
I have spent the last 4 years studying the effects on society of the feminist movements (1st wave 1850s-1920s and 2nd wave 1960s-1990s), both secularly and within the church. The effects cannot be refuted.
At the same time there was an increase in rebellion by women to the authorities over them, there are dramatic increases in all the things we detest as a society. And frankly, your responses to the women here, aside from being not bibilically supported, are arguments that are deeply rooted in the feminist practice of reinterpreting scripture to fit their agenda.
For example, you stated that love is greater than obedience. John 14:15,21 state clearly that if we love Him we will obey Him. Other scriptures as well show that God equates love with obedience.
My all time pet peave is to teach women, “Yes, he said to submit to your husband, BUT…” Go ahead, finish the phrase… “he also told men to love their wives.”
We are commanded to submit to and obey our husbands, period. That is our responsibility, period. Whether they obey God’s command to love us is between them and God. It does not remove our responsibility before God to obey them.
I have also heard it argued that if men would love their women, it would be easier for wives to obey their husbands. Well, let’s flip that. I have also found that when women obey their husbands (without a word, ie nagging) husbands find it easier to love their wives.
The advice that you have shared here, again, is a perfect example of how feminist ideology crept into theology and made quite a comfortable home for itself.
As part of my research, I did a word study on wife, wives, woman, and women. I did not just read the words, I retyped every one of the scriptures so that I would be completely familiar with each one and its CONTEXT. It took 55 pages of 11 point font with no duplicated verses. And, I can tell you based on the authority of God’s Word, that NOWHERE…NOWHERE in His word does it say that women are equal to men in any way EXCEPT that we are equal before Him unto salvation.
So in what way are we not equal? We are not equal in authority. God’s Word clearly outlines chain of command. God is the head. Then the husband, then the wife, in authority. Full context bears this out. Then there are civil authorities which are also to be considered. Men are told to obey civil authorities.
Tell me, is it considered “demeaning” and “slavery” for a man to submit to the authority of God or to civil law? Then why would it be considered “demeaning” and “slavery” for a woman to submit to the authority of her husband, as commanded by God? Only one reason, because we are rebellious and feminists have told us that to submit is loathesome.
I am fully submitted to the authority of my husband. It is a joy if embraced as such.
To Karen who is discontent because her husband wants her to stay in bed, may I ask why his request is unreasonable? Perhaps he likes the feel of the woman he loves lying next to him. Maybe he is a “morning person” too (wink,wink). Regardless of his reason, perhaps you could satisfy his wish and use the time to connect with the Lord in prayer. Perhaps you could pray that the Lord would help you submit to his request lovingly and even find joy in it. I am a night person and would stay up later than my husband, but he has made it clear that he enjoys it when I go to bed with him. We now go together.
To the mom who offered her kids soda when dad said water. I so indentify with you, because I too failed to see that offering my own alternatives were viewed by my husband as telling him and the kids that his solution was not good enough and that my idea was better. Proverbs tells us to keep hold over our tongue. This is one of those life examples.
Intead of figting God’s command to submit, and searching for manmade loopholes, why not try to embrace our role and flourish in it?
Thanks for putting in your comments Cindy. Your research is very helpful. This issue of submission is a tricky one. I think the problem goes deeper than the feminist movements through western culture. Men are just as independent and resistant to submission as women are. It is our nature as humans to rebel against God. It is our nature to resent any authority. That’s why military boot camp follows a similar pattern no matter the culture or nationality: first you break down the individuality so that each soldier responds to the commands of their superiors. You wouldn’t need to do that if we were naturally willing to submit. How many babies do you know need to be taught to cry when they want something? We are all individualistic from birth and we must learn to submit to authority in order to survive in a society.
Jesus, the Creator of everything (Colossians 1:16 says “For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.”) submitted to the authority of His Father (in John 5:19 Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.”) When we submit not only are we obeying the command of God we are also reflecting the nature of our Lord Jesus Christ. What does that do to your self-image Judy?
I loved what you said about submission Cindy. “We are commanded to submit to and obey our husbands, period. That is our responsibility, period. Whether they obey God’s command to love us is between them and God. It does not remove our responsibility before God to obey them.” That is not a popular statement but you are absolutely right.
At the same time, though, it gets more complicated in our world full of broken people, because what if the person we are called to submit to is asking us to go against God’s laws or is taking advantage of weaker people? Peter spoke up against an authority that God had instructed him to submit to (in 1Peter 2:13 “Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men”) and said, “We must obey God rather than men!” (Acts 5:29) So there are limits on our submission.
I think the key to this for the follower of Jesus is Galatians 5:16 “Walk by the Spirit and you will not satisfy the desires of the sinful nature” The more that we intentionally focus on knowing the Holy Spirit, hearing His leading for us, watching for how He shows Himself, Jesus and the Father to us, we will break away from our natural resistance to submission and reflect more and more clearly the character of Christ. He will show us when we need to stand up against an unjust authority. He will direct us when we should “keep hold over our tongue“. We will live as God has intended us to live and our lives will be the fuller and more complete for it.
If you ladies prefer to live as a slave to a man-it is your choice.
Judy, I think the preference is not to be a slave to a man but to be a follower of Jesus. Living life as Jesus leads us is not slavery but freedom. Paul wrote, “It is for freedom that Christ has set you free.” (Galatians 5:1) The faith is that if Jesus has directed us to submission than the result will be a life lived in freedom. I know our society sends a different message but when the message of the world is in contradiction to the message of God we must in faith choose God’s way. “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.” (Proverbs 10:25) You do have the choice of following God’s way or your own way but be warned, your way will be a lot more painful than you think and the end of it is destruction.
The fear of the LORD adds length to life, but the years of the wicked are cut short.
The prospect of the righteous is joy, but the hopes of the wicked come to nothing.
The way of the LORD is a refuge for the righteous, but it is the ruin of those who do evil.
The righteous will never be uprooted, but the wicked will not remain in the land.
The mouth of the righteous brings forth wisdom, but a perverse tongue will be cut out.
The lips of the righteous know what is fitting, but the mouth of the wicked only what is perverse. (Proverbs 10:27-32)
Hi Jamie. So, the fact that I feel I am equal to any man, and will not be a slave will lead to my destuction? It breaks my heart when I hear women embracing inferiority like that. The bible god HATES you. I believe in God, not the bible or organized religion-because MY God loves all people-not just the bible god’s precious men. Jamie, you are as good as any man!!! Please don’t believe you are inferior to anyone. I promised myself that I would not look into bible websites anymore (to preserve my mental health), but this came through on my email (and of course I had to give my 2 cents worth). I even changed my essay topic to racism (I can give the facts on that without wanting to kill myself-lol). I have 2 words for the wife whose husband dictated when to get up-leave him. Nobody should have to live as a slave in their own home ( a home she probably contributes to the mortgage, or at least takes care of). Even the bible god has more important things to worry about than if you are a slave to your husband/master/head or not. My God loves all people, not just the precious men, that’s why I had to give up the god of the bible. The god of the bible HATES you (I am assuming you are female). My God loves all people equally. Thank God our society is secular, becasue if we went by the bible views, women would have no rights (like in muslim countries). People died fighting for our freedom, and you are willing to give that all up because a 2000 year old book tells you to. Those people (mostly men-who obviously believe in freedom for all)died to give you the freedom you enjoy, but you want to throw it all away. You are too good for that, Jamie. Submission is okay if it’s mutual-all people need to give and take. But the bibles view is husband takes, wife gives. And he should be nice to his little pet slave. The bible harms women (probably men too). I don’t know if you read my previous posts, but the bible almost destroyed me. But that was my fault, i let it. Does it have good points-probably, but I will not look past the vile things it says about women. I also would not kill anyone who works on Sunday-that’s just plain mean.
PS. Event he woman that advocates total slavery to master/husband (Cindy) is probably glad she has secular rights, even though she does not use them. What if her master becomes totally abusive to her children? Thanks to secular rights, she is able to leave-even though the bible tells her to shut up and submit to the master. I would hope her submission/slavery will not allow that. I hope she does not teach her daughters that they should be slaves of men. If someone is afraid to make their own choices, I can see how slavery/submission might be beneficial-but only if the old master is nice. But a small group of people actually want someone else to make all our choices and decisions. I hope all of you slave women know that you are not inferior-there is no way you should act like you are. Once again-the bible and organized religion HATE you.
I am really sorry that the impression you have of the God is that He hates you and that He has commanded that His Church hates you as well. That is not the case at all. Look at the way that Jesus treated the women that He came in contact with. He always showed great care and respect for them. The story of the Samaritan woman that He met at a well outside of Sychar (found in the Bible in John 4) There were many reasons why culturally Jesus should have never even spoken to this woman: she was a woman with a sordid past, she was a Samaritan, she was a woman. The woman was at the well during the heat of the day, all by herself. Likely she was ostracized from her community because of her reputation as a ‘loose woman’. Jesus ignored all those social stigmas and interacted with her in an open and honest dialogue. He brought the hope of forgiveness to her and then she became the way that He connected with the rest of the village. There is no way that you could accuse Jesus of hating her.
Again, the story of the woman who had been caught in adultery whom the religious leaders of the day were all set to stone to death (found in John 8). Jesus challenged the authority that these people had to carry out a death sentence on this woman and then spoke to her in a loving way, forgiving her of her sin and challenging her to live a pure life. He stopped a mob of hatful people. How can that be understood as hate against women?
There are stories throughout the Bible that shows God’s love and compassion for all humanity including women. In the letter written by James we read that part of pure religion is to care for the widows and the fatherless (James 2:27). That is not hate. Husband are commanded to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave up His life for her (Ephesians 5:25) and that they should love her as they love their own body (Ephesians 5:28,29) I could go on and on.
Judy you hear the word submission and automatically jump to the conclusion that this is an expression of hate toward you. That is not the case at all. The relationship of husband and wife in the Bible is a reflection of the relationship between Jesus Christ and the church. He is the head of the church and directs her but out of His great love for her. The same is true of the husband. Granted, there is no husband that is able to love as purely as Christ does but the more that they look to Him and follow His leading the better they will be at leading their wives out of love.
Have you ever found an example in the Bible of where a husband was commended for acting cruelly or hatefully toward his wife? You won’t find it because that is not at all how God wants husbands to treat their wives. Instead they are called to cherish the wife of their youth, “May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth. A loving doe, a graceful deer– may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be captivated by her love.” (Proverbs 5:18-19) This is not the attitude of a God that hates women or wants them to be oppressed.
I would challenge you Judy to honestly explore who God is and discover what He is really like. There are all kinds of articles on these sites that talk about God’s love. Listen to Stephen Baldwin as he shares about how God’s love captured him http://powertochange.com/iamsecond/stephen-baldwin-something-was-still-missing/. Or watch Shannon Culpepper’s story about how God brought meaning to her life http://powertochange.com/iamsecond/shannon-culpepper-i-was-searching-for-love/ Or read this article by Gail Rogers that asks the question “Does God Care?” http://powertochange.com/discover/world/godcares/
Just don’t go on believing a lie that God hates you. It is not true. His love for you has no limits. As the one who created you, He knows what is best for you and has a plan for you that is far greater than you could ever imagine. He is not far off. He is right with you and is welcoming you to experience love like you have never seen before.
Lord God, I pray for Judy. There has been something that has given her this wrong idea that You hate her. Help her to see the truth. Pull back the lies that have trapped her and set her free to experience true love, and perfect authority in You. Heal the hurts that she has been carrying around for so long and bring her to the place that You have always planned for her to be: in Your arms of love. Amen.
Judy if you have questions why don’t you go and talk with one of our online mentors? http://powertochange.com/experience/talk-to-a-mentor/ It is totally free and non-threatening. They won’t push anything on you but just show you what the Bible tells us about who God is. I know they would love to talk with you and help you to discover the truth. I will be praying for you and I know there are others here who will be praying for you as well.
Jamie, I believe in a God that loves everyone, that’s why I don’t believe in the god of the bible. This god demands that women are slaves. Until I figured out the God I pray to is not the god of the bible, I thought that that god hated me. That god does-only because I was born female. That god hates you, and every other woman that walks the face of the earth. A god that loved you would never want you to become a slaver-NEVER. Even if your master was nice. Our Gods may have some similarities, but the god of the bible is cruel-mostly towards women, but sometimes men too. Ah yes, the bible also states that women our unclean and should shut up and submit. This is not love. I’m sure the bible was written by ignorant men of that time. I don not know how you can think bible god loves you, when bible god wants you to be a slave. I know some women like to not need to make their own choices-and that is fine. It is a free country, and everyone should live the way they want. However, it kind of insults my intellegence when people say the bible god endorses equality. Submission is not equality. Submission is a sort of slavery. I can only see very weak women and men believing this those vile verses. Men that believe in it are week because they need to feel superior to somebody-why not their wife/slave. And the bible condones this. Even if the master is nice to the slave wife, he still gets the satisfaction of feeling superior. Do you submissive slave wives believe that your master will make better decisions than you-about you? Do you think bible god gives men some 6th sense to know what is in the best interest of the wife/slave. No, I have nothing against God or Jesus-as long as it is not the god of the bible. That god hates me, and hates all women also. The bible is a very flawed book, and I think God is mad that some ignorant shephard put words into God’s mouth.
And if the bible was written by the true God, that God would say love each other in marriage, make it an equal partnership-not a master/slave relationship (isn’t that what it is compared too?). If that book was the word of God, don’t you think God would have advised against rape and killing women, and slavery. The god of the bible isn’t even very moral. And that’s not only in the filthy words against women-it is the cursing, and the murders, and raping. This god clearly is not very nice. This god even wants us to murder people who work on Sunday. Some people say its written out of context-don’t you think God would talk in clear words. I know what words mean. Submit means to yield your will to another. Therefore, there is no free will for a submissive. therefore, a submissive is not free-or at least only the freedom the master gives her. I think you, and all women, are too good for this demeaning and degrading status. I agree with you about Jesus. Jesus was a little nice to women, then those _______”s came along and wrote terrible things about women. I’m sorry for going on, but the subject of extreme sexism always gets my goat. It always riles me up. However, everyone has a right to live as they choose, so if you want to be a slave to some man-go for it. I think you are too good for slavery, though. i just hope you relaize it.
Ps. Jamie, you sound like a really nice person, as is most everyone I talked to on this website.
So Judy, how do you know about your God? How do you know what He is like? How do you know what He wants you to do or not do?
Common sense, Jamie. I believe in fairness and equality for everyone. To treat people like you wish to be treated. To try not to hurt anyone (I personally wouldn’t dream of killing someone because they had the misfortune to have to work on Sunday). The God I believe in is similiar to the god in christianity (I grew up as one), but I am a free-thinker, and try to live as ethically as possible. To live and let liveis my motto. I never even argue with people, to be honest with you, except on the subject of female inferiority. I am actually submissive to my pets, but if someone told me that I must become a slave of my pets-let’s just say-they would not enjoy the privleges that they currently do. Do you think it’s ethical for bible god to prefer one group of people (men) to another (women). That’s how I know the bible god is not real. God would never play favorites. I do wonder why God allows such horrible things to go on in the world, (starvation, war, poverty), It is so bad in the world now, I think maybe God has forgotten about us (even bible god’s precious men). However, I still have some faith in a good, decent God. I am what you may consider a Deist. Maybe some of the bible is words from God, but certainly not all. And my opinion is that either 1) I believe it all, or 2) I reject it all. I then rejected it all because I did not want to be a hypocrite. Some people even say that the bible advocates equality. WHAT- submission does not equal equality. Plus, the real God would have more important things on God’s mind, than telling women to be slaves. Back then, life was probably horrible. The real God would be more concerned with hunger, poverty, slavery, and war, than helping men makeslaves of their wives. We should all embrace our freedom, and thank God that we were not born in a muslim country-where women are not just religious slaves, but are legally slaves also. That is how life would be for women if 1) our laws were enacted from the bible, and 2) if we did not have a secular society to protect women’s rights. Is that how you would want to live? You deserve freedom and equality-not slavery and submission. Give me liberty or give me death.
Whose common sense determines who God is? There are many places in the world that have a different common sense than what you do. I think of the drug cartels of Mexico, or the cannibalistic tribes of Papua New Guinea. Does God love them less then you and not revealed the same common sense to them as He has you? Ah but you say that God would not play favorites. Perhaps you are at a more enlightened place and therefore superior to those people. Or maybe their common sense is the right common sense and you are the one who has missed the truth about God. How can anyone know for sure what is right? Are we all right? Maybe there are many different Gods and we all follow the one that makes the most common sense to us.
My point is, if God is loving and has a common sense that He wants us to follow doesn’t it make sense that He would reveal that to us in a more concrete form than just people’s consciences? How loving would God be if He said “I want you to live a certain way, but I am not going to tell you what that is? You have to figure it out for yourself?” We all know good parenting includes clear, consistent boundaries. Doesn’t it make sense that God, being a perfect parent, would give clear, consistent boundaries as well? That is what makes the Bible a wonderful gift to us. We have a clear concise revelation of how God wants us to live.
Authority and submission is a natural necessary part of society. Is a police officer superior as a human being to me? No. But I need to submit to the laws that he/she enforces or else suffer the consequences. Is a government official more valuable a human being than me? No. But somebody needs to make public policy and maintain the infrastructure that our society has or everything falls to pieces. So I submit to their decisions and pay the taxes they request. Not because I am inferior but because we have different roles and different responsibilities. Is a child less of a human than their parents? No but if a child fails to submit to the authority of their parents their development as a valued part of society is severely hampered.
All of these authorities were instituted by God. We are told in the Bible “For by him [it is talking about Jesus here] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” (Colossians 1:16-17) So not only did Jesus create all these authorities, He is the one continues to hold them all together: to keep them in check so that they do not go outside of their intended boundaries. If He is the one who has created them, and He is the one who holds them together, does He not have the right to define them in the way He sees best? Would it not be terribly arrogant of us to say, “I don’t like the way you set this authority up. I would like to do get rid of that”?
The wonderful thing in all of this is that God perfectly loves. He is also perfectly wise. So when He sets an authority in place not only can we have the confidence to know that it is motivated out of His love for us but that it is also the best.
Judy, I know your heart just does not want to accept this. I am guessing that part of the reason is that you have been taken advantage of or hurt by some authority in your life. I also know that part of it is the fact that all of us humans fight against the authority of God in our lives. But the fighting that you are doing, and the way that you are twisting what God has said to us all in the Bible is only taking you further and further from the God who truly loves you and wants the absolute best for you. There are going to be some things about Him that you are not going to understand fully but that is because He is so much greater than you or me. He can see things that are coming down the road that we can’t even guess at. He knows things about the human heart that are hidden from our eyes. His promise is, “that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them. For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn, with many brothers and sisters. And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And he gave them right standing with himself, and he promised them his glory.
“What can we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? Since God did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t God, who gave us Christ, also give us everything else?
“Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? Will God? No! He is the one who has given us right standing with himself. Who then will condemn us? Will Christ Jesus? No, for he is the one who died for us and was raised to life for us and is sitting at the place of highest honor next to God, pleading for us. Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or are hungry or cold or in danger or threatened with death?… No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us. And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from his love. Death can’t, and life can’t. The angels can’t, and the demons can’t. Our fears for today, our worries about tomorrow, and even the powers of hell can’t keep God’s love away. Whether we are high above the sky or in the deepest ocean, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:28-39)
I am sorry that is so long. I just couldn’t cut any of it out. It is just verse after verse that proclaim the extent of God’s love for us and the confidence we can have in Him. I ask you Judy; put aside your feelings that the Bible portrays God as hating women. Don’t let that get in the way of you getting to know the one true God who loves you so very much. Don’t let the hurt you have felt in the past rob you of the one relationship that will make you complete in every way. Ask for His help to understand why you need Him in your life and surrender yourself completely to His love and forgiveness.
You can find out more about knowing God personally at http://powertochange.com/discover/faith/discoverpurpose.
Dear Jamie, Thanks for your prayer. Thank goodness we have secular laws not to kill, rape, or steal. That way people that do not have common sense can know that these activities are not acceptable. The problem I have with the bible is the filthy, degrading things it says about women. There are probably other things that I don’t agree with, but nothing gets my anger up as discrimination against women. I refuse to agree with the bible that women are inferior creatures, should shut up, and be a proper slave to a master. Because discrimination and cruelty towards women is my absolutely main pet peeve-I had to reject the bible. The bible is toxic to me. It’s like my own special brand of illegal drugs. In fact, after reading portions of the bible, I wanted to kill myself-that’s how toxic it is to me. I think everyone has their thing-the thing that makes their ire rise. With some people, it is child or pet abuse (those are the other 2 things that really get me emotional), for some it’s racism, and for some it’s hunger. For me, it’s sexism. Sexism in any form raises my ire so much-it’s very emotional. Of course, I find the most sexism in organized religion. When I was 18, I gave up organized religion. Why-because it was toxic to me-it always has been, and probably always will be. I think a woman going to a christian church is similiar to a black person joining the KKK. My pooint is that although the bible gives you comfort, it is the opposite effect for me. I’m not saying you should give up the bible-that probably is not the right choice for you. Just as believing that I am inferior to men, and should treat them as a master-is wrong for me. You may not even get the same meaning from the words as I do, and that’s fine. We are all different. I don’t need a master, or a head. If I ever do decide to get married, it will be an equal relationship. I am an adult, and lived on my own for over 25 years-I don;t need a master/head, if anything I need a mutually supportive, equal partner. For anyone who wants a master to tell them what to do-that’s fine. We all have different needs and wants. I find submissive wives to be afraid of life. They need someone to tell them what to do, so they will not be held responsible. And that’s okay-I have my hang-ups too. Life is hard, and how we attempt to deal with them is different for everyone. I guess what I’m trying to say is that what is good for one person, may not be good for another. I try to live as good as possible. I don’t want to hurt anyone. and I don’t want anyone to hurt me. I grew up Catholic-which is the most misogynist of the misogynist religions. When I read the bible-I get so angry-I am afraid that one day I might loose all control. And then my control will strip away-and I will want to hurt people. It hasn’t led me to want to hurt anyone (except myself) yet, but the anger is intense, and I have hurt myself because of the anger. I wouldn’t want to hurt anyone else. My solution-stay away from the bible-it is bad for me.I know I went on-but few subjects cause me to get so riled up-as the mistreatment of women in organized religion.
Judy, you wrote, “I guess what I’m trying to say is that what is good for one person, may not be good for another.” From that I have to assume that you would agree that there are many different God who give different common sense to different people. Therefore what is common sense to you is not common sense to someone else because they are following different Gods. Is that what you believe about your God?
Jamie, everyone has their own opinion of God. Everyone also has their idea of what is right and what is wrong. Your impression of bible god is probably different from the christian down the street. Our morals are something we get from our parents, teachers, and yes, even organized religion. Are all christians bad-no. Are all atheists good-no. We have secular laws that say that people should not kill. If they do, they will go to jail. There are many priests that are child molesters. They claim to know the bible, and religion. Is slavery wrong? Does the bible say it is wrong for one person to own another (they even advocate the husband/head/master owns the wife/submissive. If bible god didn’t believe in slavery-why didn’t bible god state that. Could luck to the person who takes the bible as the word of God, and goes on a shooting spree at the mall. After all, they are working on Sunday, and the bible instructs that they be killed. What about people who worship Budha? What if they lead a very selfless life, and try to help people? What about the christian who murders someone, do they worship the same god as you? Think about the christians who hear “god” tell them to kill people. Everybody’s interpretation of God is different. What about the hit man who leaves church, and then goes on a killing spree?
My beef with the bible god is the treatment of women. Is it ethical to demand that one group of people enslave another group. To me, that is not ethical. Even to many of my church going friends do not think this is ethical (they must be hypocrits, huh). The bible says nothing against slavery. Does that make it okay? Well over 100 years ago, slavery was accepted, partly because of the bible. Is it wrong for a parent to love one child, and despise another like bible god does? People who do bad things are usally caught. So even if someone’s version of God says they must murder someone, because of our secular laws, they will most likely go to prison. Many of the worst people claim to be a christian, and live by the bible. That god would be different from your god. And mine.
my beef with the bible is how it portrays women. \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Just because everybody has a different opinion, does that mean that there are different Gods that reveal themselves to different people? Or is it that, for some reason, different people have different ideas about the same God? If that’s the case don’t you think the one true God would want to be known as He really is?
I just don’t think of God as a misogynist pig, who hates women and wants to make slaves of them. Therefore, I do not believe in god of the bible. Everyone else has a right to their own opinion-slave wives included. I guess it’s really none of my business what other people think. It really has nothing to do with me. That’s why I’m kind of surprised I write so much on this blog. It’s none of my business what your god instructs you to do. The only thing I can do is continue styudying psychology to be able to help girls like me who were hurt very deeply bv bible gods teachings of the inferiorty of all women. And that is voluntary-I won’t try to change people that don’t want to be changed. You never did answer any of my questions though. Especially-how does it feel to have a master? someone who has complete control over your life? I admit, sometimes (when things are bad) it would be nice to have someone make all your choices for you. You can just sit back and submit to your master. The master can make all the decisions. Just like a child. And I’l admit, childhood was not to bad. Having someone tell you what to do at all times, when you can play, and when you must work. What time you should be home. It was all very fun in a way. No responsibilities!! Oh, wait-slave wives do have responsibilities. Responsibilities without the privleges.Never mind-I thought I figured out why some women want to be slaves (or children), but I was wrong.
Ok. I have kept my silence, but now having been referred to as a child for being obedient to the Word of God, I will speak up.
No, Judy I am not a child nor trapped in childhood. No, it is not the easy way out. It takes personal discipline and maturity. No, he does not tell me when to do what. I take the responsibility of knowing what it is that needs to be done in my home or to help him in any way that I can and I take personal responsibility to do it and do it cheerfully. It is not slavery unless you view it that way.
Have you ever done something nice for someone just because it was the nice thing to do? Or, is that slavery too in your little world? I do, everyday. and I ENJOY IT! He does not tell me what to do or not to do because he doesn’t have to.
Clearly you don’t get it and you don’t want to. It is amazing to me that you are actually studying psychology and you don’t have a handle on your own. You have expressed in other comments that you are close to taking your own life or harming someone else because of your anger, and yet you think you can help someone else?! Seriously?
And finally, NO “bible god” as you so condescendingly call Him, does NOT love women any less and I do not feel inferior to men. God is perfectly able to love everyone, but in all society there is a line of authority that is best followed for the good of all. To buck authority is rebellion plain and simple. And, is a sign of immaturity, someone stuck in their adolescence.
Jamie, you have done a wonderful job of trying to explain all of this to “Judy,” but she is obviously not going to hear you because she has already made up her mind. She is not here to do anything but argue and release her vitriole.
Oh, Cindy. You are getting a little mean there. Doth you protest to much. Your submissive lifestyle is fine for you-but don’t go thinking every woman would be happy being a slave to a master. Anyway, I am just debating a point that I agree with-you seem to be getting a little personal. I don’t think I have been mean in my comments-it is just the way that I feel. In between you insults, you told me yours. We are obviously on opposite sides of the issue-and will never agree on this subject. I am very pro-woman, and always will be. I think women deserve the same rights as men do. Do you see many men wanting the subserviant womans role in the church and society? No. But, do you see women wanting the riights men have. Why, because they are basic human rights that men have enjoyed throuhgout history. Do you own property? If you do, this is because of the feminist movement. Are you able to drive a car? Ditto. Would you have the right to divorce an abusive master? Yes-why, because of the feminist movement. I will never understand people that take their freedom for granted-or give it away. One thing I do refuse to do is to be mean about it and start hurdling personal insults. If you don’t want rights-you can always move to Saudi Arabia.
PS You call me stuck in adolescence-but at least I make my own decisions and don’t need a master to tell me what to do. (OK, that was a little mean-Sorry). good luck with your slavery/submission.
PS. Cindy, the bible may get my anger up, but my views obviously get your ire up. Otherwise, you would have not made your argument so personal. You embrace your inferiority, I embrace my equality. thanks for listening. Give my liberty or give me death.
“The master can make all the decisions. Just like a child. And I’l admit, childhood was not to bad. Having someone tell you what to do at all times, when you can play, and when you must work. What time you should be home. It was all very fun in a way. No responsibilities!!” Do you NOT hear yourself? You don’t hurl insults? “Bible god HATES you!” You have done nothing but hurl insults and then you sit back and say “I’m just expressing my opinion?” You have referred to women who choose to obey God’s Word as slaves, I am not a slave and I am insulted that you keep referring to me and those like me as such. You are not simply rying to express an alternative opinion.
“at least I make my own decisions and don’t need a master to tell me what to do.” You hear only what you want to hear and what fits in with your own little ideas. I told you in my last post, my husband does not make decisions for me. However if he did, I would trust his judgement and obey him. I married the man I married in part BECAUSE I trust his judgement, otherwise I would not have.
“One thing I do refuse to do is to be mean about it and start hurdling personal insults.” Seriously? You have done nothing but be mean and insulting.
I feel as strongly about this issue as you do, although we are indeed on opposite sides of it. You coming here and insulting the Bible and the God we believe in is tantamount to me going to a secular feminist board and insulting them, with the exception that I LOVE my God with all my heart, might, mind, and strength and you have ripped Him at every opportunity and that causes deep hurt that you cannot understand.
After my first comment I felt badly that I had come across harshly by letting my frustration get the better of me. And so, I have tried to keep my silence. I have prayed for you and will continue to pray for you and for Jamie. God bless her, may she continue to show you the love and patience of “bible God.”
Ok, I concede. Now I know why polite people never talk religion or politics. They are emotional subjects. Since we live in America-we are free to live the way we choose. And thank God for that. Since submission is kind of synonymous to slavery, I didn’t realize that you would be insulted by the comparision. I do believe in God, and in Jesus, I just don’t believe the bible is the inspired word of God. Anyway, I wish you all the best. Judy
Yes Judy, they are emotional subjects. People have strong opinions on religion because it becomes the basis of how you live your life. It is a wonderful privilege to live in places where we can have opinions. You are free to have you own opinion on what God and Jesus require of you, but I want to challenge you to consider how you decide what God requires of you if you have no concrete revelation from Him? Does it not really become what you want rather than what God wants then? That is why the Bible is such a wonderful gift to humanity from God: we don’t have to guess what He wants and our decisions about our lives are guided by the principles He lays out. Yes, there are parts that are not comfortable and go against the way we think things should be. But that is exactly why Jesus had to come to Earth: the way we think things should be is wrong and we needed direction to know which way is right. “Trust in the Lord with all of your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all of your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your path. Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and turn away from evil. It will be healing to your body and refreshment to your bones.” (Proverbs 3:5-9)
What about all the killing and raping in the bible. How many people does it tell you to stone others? I’d rather treat all people as equals, than stone them for, maybe working on Sun, or giving your daughters to be raped? I don’t see the bible giving much moral advice. Sure, love your neighbor. But if you truly loved your neighbor-wouldn’t you want that person to have the rights and privleges that you enjoy? Why would you morally tell slaves or women that they should not enjoy the same rights and privledges that men/masters have? that would mean that the men who believe in the submission (either to women or slaves) do not love thy neighbor. And what about people of different religions-why should we want to kill them (if they are peaceful). To be honest, I would hate to see people going around stoning people for any little reason. Or to give your daughters to be raped so that your guest would be safe.
You’re not asking easy questions Judy :) I like that! There is some misinformation in your questions that muddies the waters, but I appreciate that you want to see the truth of the Bible before you accept it for yourself. That is good.
The morality that is presented in the Bible is a reflection of the character of God and is based on who He is. The better we know God, the better we are able to understand His moral standards. But we humans, because we are finite beings and God is infinite, without any limits, we are unable to comprehend the totality of God, which also means that there are aspects of His moral standards that we may not be able to understand but are still called to obey. It is like a toddler who hits his playmate in order to get a treasured toy. The child only knows that he wants the toy and doesn’t understand that it is wrong to hurt others to try and get it. But the parents’ rules that the child is not allowed to hit must be obeyed even if the child doesn’t understand why; the child will obey because he has learned to trust the wisdom of his parents. Now I am not saying that you are a child but that God’s insight and wisdom far exceeds all of ours as humans. There are some aspects that we need to obey even if we don’t understand why. However we can be confident that the things that God asks us to obey are right and for our benefit because we have confidence in His character.
If there are aspects of God’s moral standard that are hard for you to accept don’t abandon trust in Him. Keep on getting to know who He is. Learn about His trustworthiness and how His wisdom and goodness are always solid. There will always be things you don’t understand, but because you have discovered the faithful nature of God you will be able to confidently follow where He leads.
Now for the misunderstandings: rape is always condemned in the Bible. There are stories of people taking advantage of others but that is always condemned.
In regards to doing work on Sundays: God had set aside the importance of the Sabbath (which is actually sunset Friday to sunset Saturday according to the Jewish understanding of the beginning and the end of a day) as a day to honour Him. By not working on the Sabbath the people of God show that their trust is in God and not in their own efforts to earn an income. It is also a look forward to the hope that people of God will enter into the rest that He has promised when we die and go to heaven to be with Him. It is also a symbol of the completion of our salvation when Jesus died on the cross and completely paid the penalty for our rebellion against God. In the time before Jesus the breaking of this commandment was a serious offense. It was seen as a blatant disregard for God and rebellion against Him. Because this revealed an attitude of the heart that had little concern for God it was dealt with very severely (yes, being stoned to death). There was a recognition that an attitude of rebellion towards God would quickly spread through the people of God and do great damage to their collective relationship with Him (which ultimately became the reality). In the first century, Jesus reframed the understanding of the Sabbath from a legalistic prohibition against work to an attitude of trust in God and a desire to honour Him with our lives. In order to honour Jesus and His sacrifice on our behalf, the Christian Church has traditionally set aside Sunday as the day to honour God since it was Easter Sunday when Jesus rose from the dead (hence Sunday being called “the Lord’s Day”). Jesus’ teaching on the importance of the attitude of the heart and not the legalistic expectation of a particular day was reinforced when Paul wrote, “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.” (Romans 14:4-6) So no longer is someone stoned for working on Sunday or the Sabbath.
Another misunderstanding is that ‘submission’ somehow equals a loss of rights or value. That is just not the case. Anyone who suggests that the Bible somehow promotes that has missed the point of what God is saying. The attitude of submission that a wife has is not a recognition that she is less valuable than her husband but that she has a different role than her husband. It’s the same thing we would say about a boss and an employee; the employee is not less of a person than the boss, but because of their different roles the boss is able to direct the actions of the employee. The wife and husband are equal in value but their different roles, as set up by God, means that they have different responsibilities. Some husbands don’t handle that role well and take advantage of their wife. That is not God’s intent at all. God calls husbands to love their wives sacrificially just as Jesus sacrificed Himself for us. That means putting aside their wants and serving the needs of their wife. Jesus’ example of leadership puts our whole understanding of it on its head. He said, “You know that in this world kings are tyrants, and officials lord it over the people beneath them. But among you it should be quite different. Whoever wants to be a leader among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must become your slave. For even I, the Son of Man, came here not to be served but to serve others, and to give my life as a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:25-28) So it is the leader who becomes the slave and serves those he/she leads. That is just as radical today as it was in Jesus’ time.
Did I explain that clearly?
Sorry Jamie. Some of my post was deleted. I wanted to say your child has an accident-You are a psysician, your husband/head is a financial planner. You know what to do to keep your child safe, he saw something on tv, and he thinks he has a better solution. Do you yield your will to him. Even if he may hurt your child with his decision? this may seem a little extreme, but are you willing to see someone hurt or worse by a wrong decision by your head (and I don’t think someone who earned her doctorate degree would be a submissive wife anyway-I would hope earning an advanced degree would give one the self-esteen to not be a submissive in her own home). I mean if you truly want to give your will to him, what choice would you have. The head would always have the final vote – no? If you yield to your will to another, then what happens to your will? or your stengths, or your knowledge? or your education? As I said earlier, if submissive means something else-why isn’t that word used. And, what do you think about a girl baby making a mother more unclean than a boy? The precious baby girl? And why would having a baby make you unclean at all? Isn’t it supposed to be a beautiful thing-a miracle. Well, in the bible, that beautiful miracle makes one unclean. What? So, if I was born a boy, my mother would have been unclean less, huh? Wow. So babies make their mothers unclean? Mean babies – especially girl babies!
I guess what I’m trying to say, Jamie, is that each person should be given rights and privleges. Saying a man should be the ultimate authority over you is like picking someone out of a crowd to do surgery on you. Are women responsible for their own actions? How can they be-if they are being submissive to a man/master and only doing the things she is told to do? It’s like saying “you are responsible for your own action-but you have no say in what you do”. I realize even the subs do some things on their own-but is this due to the master/husband giving her a little rights and privleges. And if you do stand up for your rights, you are not really being submissive. I know some husbands/masters/head are nice, and may give a submissive some freedom, but that is not really the point-is it? Do you have a choice not to give in every time he barks? What about the case where he could hurt someone because he thinks he is right? Would you let him do that? If you don’t-you are not really being submissive (yielding to the will of another -which is always the husband/head). What kind of man would want someone who just obeys? It would have to be a weak man-who may not get any respect in the outside world-but he is superior to his wife. And if you always think the husband/head will make the right decision, and at least ask what you think-I’ll say one thing – people change. Absolute power-whether in government, a corporation, or the family, does crazy things to people. Please let me know what your opinion of the unclean verses are. How do we know that rape is not endorsed in the bible? There sure was a lot of it. I don’t really remember any verses where it said it was wrong-or to disregard the instructions? I did, however, like your explanation about people working on Sun. But how do you know that this is not in effect anymore? Stoning is another thing-your explanation was good-but how do we really know? Well, anyway, I wish you all the best.
I sure hope the man you marry (or have married) is not just someone that you picked out of a crowd!? :) That would not be the most advisable method for picking a spouse (or a doctor for that matter).
A submissive person still has rights and privileges. Does the submissive citizen lose all their rights and privileges to their elected representative or even their monarchy? No! That is not what submission means. When the government makes poor decisions we the people have the responsibility to call them to account. That happened time and again in the Bible when kings turned their back on God and followed their own ways, there were those who stood up and pointed out their error. Similarly there are examples of women who spoke out against their husbands’ wrong choices. Read the story of Abigail in 1Samuel 25 (you can read it at BibleGateway.com http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Samuel+25&version=NLT) You asked if a wife is responsible for her actions. Absolutely she is. It’s like the movie “A Few Good Men” where soldiers, following their superiors’ orders, killed a fellow marine. In the end the officers were found guilty for their poor orders but the soldiers were still held accountable for their actions as well.
The picture of a submissive wife is not a small quiet mousey type woman who never speaks. This is how the Bible describes a virtuous wife, “Who can find a virtuous and capable wife? She is worth more than precious rubies. Her husband can trust her, and she will greatly enrich his life. She will not hinder him but help him all her life. She finds wool and flax and busily spins it. She is like a merchant’s ship; she brings her food from afar. She gets up before dawn to prepare breakfast for her household and plan the day’s work for her servant girls. She goes out to inspect a field and buys it; with her earnings she plants a vineyard. She is energetic and strong, a hard worker. She watches for bargains; her lights burn late into the night. Her hands are busy spinning thread, her fingers twisting fiber. She extends a helping hand to the poor and opens her arms to the needy. She has no fear of winter for her household because all of them have warm clothes. She quilts her own bedspreads. She dresses like royalty in gowns of finest cloth. Her husband is well known, for he sits in the council meeting with the other civic leaders. She makes belted linen garments and sashes to sell to the merchants. She is clothed with strength and dignity, and she laughs with no fear of the future. When she speaks, her words are wise, and kindness is the rule when she gives instructions. She carefully watches all that goes on in her household and does not have to bear the consequences of laziness. Her children stand and bless her. Her husband praises her: “There are many virtuous and capable women in the world, but you surpass them all!” Charm is deceptive, and beauty does not last; but a woman who fears the LORD will be greatly praised. Reward her for all she has done. Let her deeds publicly declare her praise” (Proverbs 31:10-31) That is hardly a quiet, pushover. She is strong and capable.
So in your hypothetical situation, the Dr/wife would be responsible to explain to her husband the necessary treatment for the injured child. A wise husband would heed the input from his wife recognizing her superior training and skill. It would be foolish to do otherwise. Now if the husband would foolishly continue to impose his wrong ideas the wife would be subject to a higher directive of God to preserve life. In her submission to God she would be responsible to take the appropriate action against her husband’s will in order to save their child. In submission to her husband, she would correct him in love and not in a demeaning way but still with strength and in confidence of following God’s direction in her life.
Probably a more realistic hypothetical situation is that a husband makes a financial decision for the family that wife disagrees with. It is her responsibility to discuss the issue with her husband and, in a loving and clear way, present why she disagrees with her husband’s decision. If he continues to feel that his decision is the best course of action then yes, it is appropriate for the wife to support her husband’s decision because as the head of the family he has the responsibility to make those decisions. Now if the husband is a drug addict and is wasting all of the family’s money on his addiction, it would be the wife’s responsibility to help him by taking away his access to the money and directing him towards professional help. This is still submissive but it recognizes a weakness in her husband’s character that significantly threatens the well-being of their family and his life.
Does that help to show what the Bible means about submission?
Now, about your question about childbirth making the mother unclean: I have to admit that I am not sure why there is a 7 day difference in the cleansing process of a baby girl and boy. It may have something to do with the instructions for the boy to be circumcised on the eighth day but I can’t say that for sure (the instructions given in Leviticus 12 does include the instructions for a boys ritual circumcision). I know the language seems harsh to call a mother ‘unclean’ after giving birth but you need to remember the context of this. The people of Israel had some strict guidelines about purity that had three purposes: 1) to set them apart as a unique nation which had been chosen to point the rest of the world toward God. The laws about things ‘clean’ and ‘unclean’ were a way that they would be uniquely identified with the holiness of God; 2) The laws were also there as a reminder to them of their need to live a life that reflected God’s holiness and honoured His perfection; 3) The laws also provided safe practices that avoided many of the communicable diseases of the day by identifying what was ‘unclean’ and potentially unhealthy. Blood was a significant part of the clean and unclean laws because of its importance to the regular worship that happened at the Temple (the blood of sheep, oxen, doves, etc. played a big part in the rituals of worship). It was the blood of the unblemished lamb that atoned for the sins of the people. But there was also the recognition that blood can decompose quickly and carry all kinds of dangerous toxins and bacteria. When a person came in contact with anything dead they were considered unclean and needed to purify themselves. Because of the tremendous amount of blood that can come with childbirth it was wise to isolate the woman from contact with others until she had gone through an appropriate cleansing period.
This is getting kind of long but you did also ask for some clarification on the Sabbath law. Jesus said, “The Sabbath was made to benefit people, not people to benefit the Sabbath.” (Mark 2:27) What He was saying is that the Sabbath was established to help people focus their attention on God and to live healthy, balanced lives. It is still right and good for us to observe Sabbath because we still need to focus our attention on God and live healthy balanced life. But with the coming of Jesus and His death and subsequent resurrection God deals with sin and rebellion in a very different way. Jesus’ death on the cross paid the penalty for our sin and rebellion against God and whoever puts their faith in Him rather than their own efforts to atone for their sins, is forgiven of all of their sin, including the breaking of the Sabbath. Now that doesn’t mean we live however we want because Jesus is our “Get out of Jail Free” card. Instead, out of a gratefulness of what Jesus has done for us we want to live a life that reflects His perfect character. Our good deeds are motivated by our love for God, not an effort to appease God. Not only that but God has given His Holy Spirit to His followers. The Holy Spirit helps the followers of Jesus to know what it is that pleases God and He empowers them to be able to live out that standard.
Jamie, so you are saying a sub wife is responsible for actions she does-even though the husband/head ordered it? That seems really unfair-if she must submit to th ehusband/head/master in all things. You said that there were certain things that she must do as she knows is right. How is this submissive? Do we have different definitions-if so, please let me know what dictionary you got the meaning from. If the husband/head/master wanted to squander all of YOUR money away on an investment-you disagreed-would you still submit (yield to his will) even if you knew at that point that if you did the investment, your children would starve? It seems to me you either submit (your free will to him) if you believe in the bible, or you don’t (like me-do not believe in it). If you do submit, all your free will is given to him. As I asked before, if there is a different dictionary definition, please let me know the publisher. I know it means either to yield one’s will to another, or to apply for something (as in submit an application). Nowhere does the word imply that someone submitting has any free will-that’s why I depend on the dictionary.
Another thing, the bible says to submit to husbands/head as the lord. Does that mean treat them like God??
I can never, and will never, believe in a book that treats women and girls as the lowest bugs on earth (or 4th class citizens-if I don’t want to be overdramatic-First-men, second-mammal animals, third-fish and amphibians, fourth-women). yes, I think the animals are treated better than women-they are not ordered to obey someone just because the have a _______.In your work analysis, you mentioned employer and worker-and no they are not equal-at least between 9 to 5.
I see we’ll never agree on this subject. I’m glad you found a definition of submit, where you are still left with your rights and freedom. I always wondered if sub wives celebrated the fourth of July-since it is a freedom holiday, and some sub wives have actually given their free will to the husband/head/master-why would you celebrate a holiday celebrating freedom when you gave yours away. As I said, I must have a different definition.
Anyway, we’ll probably never see eye to eye on the subject. I guess I will never be saved since I cannot believe in my subservience to men-no matter how nice. you were very nice to explain your views so nicely. I really do wish you all the best
However, mutual submission is good. That implies give and take. That implies an equal partnership where there are no head/masters and no subordinates. This, to me, sounds like a much better relationship (and with the equality-there can then be a friendship).
My comment about the surgeon just meant that even though someone has no special skills or knowledge, you give him absolute authority over you. He has the power of life and death in his hands, kind of like someone performing surgery. If someone has absolute power over you, they would have to be perfect-Like God. However, no one is perfect, no one knows everything-how can you give him absolute power over you? Just asking.
I would have to disagree with you regarding the definition of submit, Judy. Merriam-Webster defines submit “to yield to governance or authority” and submission “an act of submitting to the authority or control of another”. Both of those imply making a choice in the same way that rebel “to oppose or disobey one in authority or control” is also a choice. So the very foundation of the word ‘submit’ is the ability to choose.
I would also disagree about the employer/employee equality. Perhaps I did not state my point as clearly as possible. Yes the employer is the authority but both are equal in value as human beings. Similarly, just because the wife is called to submit to her husband does not take away her value as a human being. Your hierarchy of value does not at all reflect the Bible’s viewpoint on the value of a woman. Husbands are called to love their wives and care for them as they would care for themselves. Women (along with all followers of Jesus) are referred to as saints which means “set apart for sacred purposes”. So to say that women are lower value than men (and animals) is not at all how the Bible views women.
As for your comment that the Bible commands wives to submit to their husbands as Lord, I am not sure where you got that from. Perhaps it was 1Peter 3:6 where Sarah is lauded for the way she obeyed her husband Abraham and called him lord. She was not calling him God but calling him master. Sarah had no confusion between her husband and God. The only other place I could find is Colossians 3:18 and Ephesians 5:22 which talk about submitting to your husband as you have been directed to by God.
The whole idea of submission is an important one throughout the Bible because it goes to the very heart of the problem of humanity: we naturally are opposed to submission to God. There is within each of us a rebelliousness that does not want to acknowledge the authority that God has over us. The lie that was told to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden was exactly that “You will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Genesis 3:5) Ever since then men and women have been trapped in a human nature that wants to define for ourselves what is good and what is evil; to define the path and destiny of their own lives; to be our own god. And that nature puts God as our enemy because His nature as our Creator is one of authority. He has created us all for a purpose. He has a plan for our lives. Our nature fights against that and says, “I want to determine for myself what my purpose is” and we choose our own way.
God has created authority structures in this world because it reflects His nature. The Bible says that God has appointed kings and governments. They have authority in their spheres but are ultimately responsible to Him. God has ordained leaders in the church to shepherd and care for the people in their congregation but they are subject to the authority of the Good Shepherd, Jesus. Parents have authority over their children as determined by God but the parents are accountable to Him for the way they use that authority and raise their children. Husbands have authority over their wives because God has designed it that way, but husbands are called to account of how they used that authority and how they sacrificially loved their wife.
As we look at all those authorities we see examples of people who have abused that position. God will deal with those individuals severely because with authority comes responsibility. But the bad examples don’t take away the God-ordained authority in those positions and the need for those called to submit to obey God’s directive.
So in essence, submitting to your husband is first of all a submission to God. The opposite is also true: lack of submission is a rebellion against God. I say all this because the most important submission that you are called to is to God. Get that one right. Once you have that relationship in its proper place then He will guide you and empower you to properly submit to the other authorities in your life. Not only that, but He will protect you and guide you when you are in an authority relationship that is dangerous. Along with that, when you are in a position of being an authority, He will guide you so that you lead with love and a servant-heart just as Jesus modeled for us.
Judy, I don’t know what your relationship with God is like but I would encourage you to make sure that relationship is in order first. A great starting place is http://powertochange.com/discover/faith/discoverpurpose/ where you can find out how to know God better and to know His Son Jesus Christ.
Hi Jamie.
I did live with an authority in my home once-I was a child, and my parents told me basically what to do. I didn’t like everything I was told, but I accepted it-I did not pay the bills, and I did not keep up the house (other than certain chores). When I was a teenager, I was given more freedom, but not total. I didn’t like that either. I did not want authority in my own home. But, this really wasn’t my home, again, I didn’t pay bills and I didn’t keep house. My name was not on the deed. Plus, as a child or teenager, I needed authority in the home. Did I like it-no. Did I understand it-yes. I knew I did not own the home, and deep down I knew that as a child or teen, I was not fully capable of making all my own decisions. So, I lived with authority in the home. Later, I moved out of my parents home. Noboby told me what to do, and I was responsible to do what I needed to do. While I had to answer to an authority at work and in college, I knew that at home, I was my own authority. Nobody told me what to do, and I told nobody what to do. At first, I had room mates, so I repected them, and tried to be a good room mate, I was my own “authority” at home. We lived together in harmony and co-operation, but it was a home of equals-no one was in authority, and no-one was inferior. I eventually got a place of my own, and did not even have to worry about respecting room mates. What I am getting from you is that, by getting marries, one should go back to the point where they have an authority in their own homes. so, in other words, you are saying to go back to that childhood or teenhood state. Even though, at this time, you are not a child or a teenager, and may even be smarter and better than the “authority” in your new home. Plus, you are probably paying half of the mortgage, and doing most of the housework. I vaguely understood the authority in my parents home, and understood why they were the “boss of me”, but I don’t understand any adult letting someone else be the “boss of them”. I’m sorry, but I will never understand it. The passage I was talking about was something like “Wives, submit unto your own husbands, as unto the lord. Also, what about the question that I asked about wives having to be responsible to God for their choices, but that same god limiting their choice so severely, that anything that they do could be determined by their husband/head/authority. If you have authority over you, you should not be responsible for your own actions (if you have no control of them). Its like saying you are responsible for what you do, but you have no choice in what you do.
Jamie, its obvious we will never agree. I hope I do not go to hell-with wife-beaters who did not love their wives. I cannot give up my principles though, and the equality of ALL humans-not just men-is chief among them. I think we are both going around in circles. Best wishes, Judy.
I don’t think we are just arguing in circles Judy. I think it is great that we have had the chance to really explore together what is core within ourselves. Just because we haven’t changed each other’s mind about authority does not mean that we have not gained anything from this conversation. We have both had opportunity to compare our beliefs with another and evaluate what we believe to insure that it is the belief that we still want to hold. If we are engaged in this kind of a conversation unwilling to change our beliefs then, yes, we are wasting our time. But if there has been an openness to the possibility that someone else’s beliefs could be a better way than mine then when our conversation has ended we can have the confidence that our beliefs have been made stronger whether they have changed or not. I have truly enjoyed getting to know a little piece about you and sharing myself with you.
With that said, let’s get back to the fight :) …..kidding, just kidding!
I see your concern about submission to a husband and that you connect that to being a child/teen. There are some significant differences between the parent/child relationship and the husband/wife relationship. As you point out, a wife has a much greater degree of skill and competency than a child, therefore the level of trust that a husband has in delegating responsibility to his wife is going to be much greater. As the description of the godly wife in Proverbs 31 says (I quoted this in its entirety in another post) “She considers a field and she buys it.” That is high level of trust that a husband has in his wife to give her the responsibility of purchasing land without consulting him. “She opens her mouth in wisdom and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.” You’ll notice that she is not silent. Her life experience has gained her wisdom and she teaches others from that wisdom.
The husband/wife relationship is also unique in the way that God describes it: “For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.” (Genesis 2:24 and then quoted in several other places in the Bible) That idea of being one flesh points to a unique and extreme unity. As Paul noted, a husband cares for himself when he cares for his wife (Ephesians 5:28-29) In another place Paul talks about the wife having authority over the husband’s body (1Corinthians 7:4 is talking about sexual intimacy between a husband and wife) just as the husband has authority over the wife’s body. So this is a unique relationship that goes far beyond the relationship between a parent and child, and the relationship of roommates. The commitment one makes to a spouse far exceeds the commitment to a roommate. The things that are shared within a husband/wife relationship is far more intimate and complete than what is shared with roommates. I would think that you want more from your husband then what you wanted from your roommates.
I don’t see marriage as going back at all but moving into a relationship that is different from any other relationship that we may have ever had. It is one step closer to what our relationship with God is like. The intimacy that we share with our spouse is only exceeded by the intimacy we share with God. Part of the reason for our relationship with our spouse is so that we can better relate to God. God said at Creation, “it is not good that man should be alone.” (Genesis 2:18) So He created Eve to be a suitable helper, someone who would help Adam to become all God had intended him to be, which above all is to know, worship and serve God. (That is not to say that single people cannot relate to God. He does say that to some He has given the special ability of celibacy (1Corinthians 7:7) But most of us are called to be married and through that relationship better understand our relationship with God.)
You are right about the verse. It is Ephesians 5:22 “Wives submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” This does not mean, submit to your husband instead of the Lord. Jesus clearly said that our first love is for God (Luke 14:26) He showed us the example of resisting an authority that is over us that tries to get us to go against what God directs. But wives are called to submit to the God-given authority of their husband.
So how does that kind of submission then translate into responsibility for action? Let’s look at a current example: the people of Greece are in trouble. The debt of the country is climbing to unprecedented heights. Who made the decisions of how to tax and spend the money of the country? It was the government officials. But who will ultimately pay for those decisions? The people of the country will still be held responsible to pay off those debts or at least pay for the consequences of the decisions their government has made. Similarly a wife whose husband makes poor decisions will still be held responsible for the part that she played in that. It is a part of the nature of authority and submission and personal responsibility.
As I stated in my last post, the submission of a wife to her husband is less important than the submission of a woman or man to God. How well do you understand and live out submission to God? Do you find yourself needing to come up with your own principles rather than trusting in God’s? Do you find yourself having to define your own God rather than accept Him as He has revealed Himself? Have you experienced the freedom that Jesus has promised when you submit to Him? Those are questions that are far more crucial for you to answer.
i think we should submit to our husbands the church is or should also submit to God, he calls for it not to lord over us but to help the husbands and to love them as they should love us as wives, its a give and take relationship i think
Jamie, I always believed in God, even though I quit organized religion as soon as I was able to (my parents made me go to church as a child). In the last 2 years, I really started to question things. There is just so many bad things happening in the world-always has been. Does God love the starving people in Africa less than others with enough to eat. Anyway, I still believe in God, but I pray that God is not misogynistic God of the bible. I still feel that that god hates me. That that god hates all women. And what about slaves. Even though true slavery (as opposed to submission slavery) is illegal, did God hate them? Also, your comment that although bible God gives women no freedom, they are still responsible for their actions. What kind of god give someone no freedom or choices-but to obey, and then tells them they are responsible for their actions in which they had no choice per God’s instructions. It’s like someone being born with a mental handicapped, and then being judged for their disability or their inability to learn. Crazy concept. So, although I have problems with the bible, I still believe in God. I don’t think God really meant for so many people to be starving, and miserable, but I’m wondering why God does not do something about it. Al through history, terrible things have happened. If God could, would God change things? I remember someone saying to me once, that this is our hell. If that is true, it is certainly more hellish for some than for others. Think starving people in Africa, or abused children in the USA. Does God hate them like God hates women? If you took out all the people the Gopd of the bible hates, you wouldn’t have too many of God’s children god actually likes. I would narrow it down to rich white males. And even in secular life, who has all the privledge and power-rich , white males. Does that mean God loves them more than the rest of us? Why are some peoplesmart and some people not? Why are some people physically or mentally handicapped? Do you think God rewards people who have it rough on earth, in heaven? Do you believe the woman who steals an apple to feed her starving child will go to heaven? What about the rich CEO who cheats on his taxes? The hit man who kills people? How bad does one have to be to go to hell? If everybody is god’s child, how can God banish one of the children to hell? Even if a someone’s child turns out bad, would a parent turn their back on that child? Is evil something that is in your dna-can you actually control evil? Most people can, and that’s why most people are decent, but what about the person who is mentally handicapped, and has no control over their actions. I know I’ve gone on and on, I guess what I’m saying is that I do believe in God, but there are many questions I have. The only thing I downright reject is the treatment of women in the bible. The rest are just questions that I wonder about when I am alone and thinking of things (you know-like the meaning of life). Life is sometimes so hard that I can almost understand submissive wives wanting to get away from having to make their own choices. I know you don’t think it, but it seems a lot like going back to childhood-when you just did as you were told, and had no responsibility. Even though I know you have the responsibility to obey your master, you can just let someoneelse make all the choices. If that person that is your husband/master is extremely smart, and saavy, and always know the right thing to do, and a woman doesn’t want to make any choices, this may work out. I never met a man that I described above. I can’t see how it would work unless he was better than you-in every way shape or form. But I do notice a lot of women “marry Up”. Marry someone who is smarter, more successful, and richer than they are. In other words, better in every way.
Wow Judy! That is a lot of questions. Don’t you ever think about light stuff like quantum mechanics or solutions to the global economic crisis?! ;D I am going to choose a few that I think are kind of representative of some of the other ones. If I miss something that you really want to talk about let me know.
“I don’t think God really meant for so many people to be starving, and miserable, but I’m wondering why God does not do something about it. Al through history, terrible things have happened. If God could, would God change things?” The thing that we learn as we look at the story of history told in the Bible is that we are surrounded by evil in this world because of the rebellious choices of humanity. This not only includes the obvious ways that humans hurt and take advantage of each other but the Bible says that our rebellion against God has impacted the natural world around us as well. “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:17-19) This was the pronouncement of God after Adam and Eve first rebelled against God in the Garden of Eden. In another place we read, “For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay… We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.” (Romans 8:20-22) So we are victims of our own evil choices. God, in His love for us, allows us to continue to choose evil rather than force us to choose the good. I know that sounds a little confusing, that God’s love results in allowing people to choose evil, but think about it: if God forced us to choose only good things would we truly love Him? True love can only exist when there is an opportunity to choose not to love. So God allows humanity to choose whether it will love Him or not and He withholds His eternal judgement giving all of us an opportunity to come to our senses and realize that His way is best. He then totally changed the game by Himself entering our existence in the person of Jesus Christ and showed us His limitless love by taking the punishment for our rebellion on Him and provide a way for us to know Him intimately. So yes, God can and has changed things. He has done it in a way that no one expected. He didn’t force people to choose Him but made it possible for them to be changed by His love for them. And as we are changed by His love, our freedom becomes the freedom of all of nature: “The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.” (Romans 8:19-20) *Just a quick aside, when this verse talks about ‘sons of God’ it is using it in the generic sense which is emphasized when it later refers to ‘the children of God’.
“Think starving people in Africa, or abused children in the USA. Does God hate them like God hates women? If you took out all the people the God of the bible hates, you wouldn’t have too many of God’s children god actually likes.” First let me clarify the term ‘children of God’. It is right to call all humanity the ‘children of God’ because He has created us all. The Bible doesn’t use that term in that way though (at least not that I could find in a quick search). Instead, when the Bible talks about the children of God it is referring to those who have been impacted by the sacrifice that Jesus has made on their behalf and have surrendered themselves to His authority in their lives. “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God– children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.” (John 1:11-12) “This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God” (1John 3:10)
As I have said before, God does not hate women, nor does He hate those who are suffering. The issue of suffering in the world is a very complex issue and I want to wade in carefully because it is easy to be misunderstood. As I stated earlier, much of the suffering that people are experiencing is the result of humanity’s rebellious choices against God; both those who are abused (obviously directly impacted by people’s evil choices) and those who suffer in natural disasters. But in all those situations God’s love reaches to those who are experiencing suffering and provides for them. How? Sometimes it is in physical ways where He sends someone to relieve the suffering. Sometimes it is in a spiritual way where He brings comfort in the middle of the suffering or reveals Himself in an intimate way. Sometimes it is a completely unexpected way that He uses the suffering to accomplish something that could never have happened without the suffering.
A great example of that is the way that the persecution of the Christians in the first and second century spread them all around the Roman Empire as they tried to save their lives. These committed followers of Jesus had developed a strong trust in their Lord to care for their needs so that when the plagues began to ravish so many of the cities and towns of the region Christians were there and cared for the sick and dying when so many of the rest of the population fled to uninfected areas. Thousands of lives were saved because the Christians remained behind (some of them losing their own lives to the ravages of the disease) and tried to alleviate the suffering of others. That could have never happened without the suffering that they first went through.
Now I want to say, I cannot say why God allows the suffering that He does. Often when we look back on it we can see His hand in it. But when people are in the middle of the suffering it is usually very difficult to determine the purpose. But what I do know is that God cares for people in the middle of suffering and He works in perfect ways to bring blessing out of the suffering, even when we cannot see it. That is the expression of His love, not His hate.
“Is evil something that is in your dna?” This is a very insightful question Judy. I think we all know that within us are some pretty dark parts that we don’t want anyone to know about. We look around at the people in this world and we are not surprised that it takes very little to push people into evil and destructiveness. Yes, the Bible tells us that we all are born with a nature that is rebellious towards God. “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 2:10-18) As much as we like to think that we are pretty good people we also intuitively know that there is evil in each one of us. No one has to teach their children to lie or be possessive. It comes very naturally.
“How bad does one have to be to go to hell?” This is a scary question Judy, especially when it comes right after the former question. The Bible is clear that our rebellious nature separates us from God and ultimately condemns us to an eternity spent in Hell. “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.” (James 2:10) And the consequence of that guilt, “The wages [the result or consequence] of sin is death [eternal separation from God in Hell]” (Romans 6:23) So the stark truth of this is, we are all destined for Hell. Even if we are a mostly good person, the rebelliousness of our hearts condemns us to death.
That is why the message of Jesus Christ is such Good News. God knew we were trapped in a destructive path towards death and yet His love for us compelled Him to plan a way for us to be set free from that condemnation. He allowed His Son, Jesus Christ, to suffer and die in our place and take on Himself the punishment for our rebelliousness. “He [God] made Him who knew no sin [Jesus] to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” (2Corinthians 5:21) “For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:23) “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God– children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.” (John 1:11-12)
That offer of freedom from the condemnation of death is available to all who believe that Jesus’ sacrifice paid the penalty for their rebelliousness and trust in Him to give them eternal life. If you want to find out more about how to accept that gift of life from Jesus check out this website http://powertochange.com/discover/faith/discoverpurpose.
I just want to make one point about Sarah. She was the one who asked Abraham to lay with the slave woman. After her decision she realized that it was not a good idea. If he hadn’t listened to the voice of his wife from the beginning they would not had been going through all that problem. Adam listened to the voice of his wife Eve and the rest is history. Jobs was told by his wife to curse God to His face and Job corrected her for her foolishness. The man is the head of his marriage and home. A woman is to obey her husband in everything. She is to reverence him, she is to respect him. Men have been suffering for many years because of unreasonable women who refused to follow God’s ordained order but yet have unreasonable expectations of their husband that they can’t even meet. We need to stop acting like women are the only victims here. The bible is very clear as to how a husband is to treat his wife. But to pretend that men are the only one that have a hard time to follow God’s command relating to marriage is to twist the facts.
John, it is too convenient for men to pass the blame for their sin on to their wives. Adam failed to protect his wife from the lies and temptation of the serpent. We see in Genesis 3:6 that he was with her the whole time. Consistently in the New Testament that Adam is held responsible for the sin. That does not absolve Eve but part of a husband’s responsibility as head is to protect and guide his family away from temptation and sin. Just because Sarah suggested the liaison between Abram and Hagar does not absolve Abram from the act.
It is a dangerous thing to point at others for the poor choices we have made. Blaming wives for being unreasonable and causing suffering for men is not at all a helpful accusation. So men, take your responsibility seriously and don’t fall for the temptation of abdicating your role as leader. Women, honour your husbands and empower them to live out that role as leader.
John, Thank you for having he courage to say what many would not. I like that you pointed out the specific wording, “he listened to the voice of his wife,” as this was the first sin for which Adam was censured by God. “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife…and ate of the apple.”
Jamie, your response was the prevailing answer in society today. Whenever this subject comes up, the responsibility of wives’ submission is brushed aside in favor of blaming men, yet it is unacceptable for a man to point out the responsibility of women.
The title of the article is “Should Wives Really Submit?” In Genesis 3:16, God tells Eve, “And he shall RULE OVER you.” It can not be any more clear. Therefore the answer to the question is, “If you believe the Bible to be the Word of God and the Word of God commands wives to submit to their husbands, then YES, biblically speaking wives should really submit.” End of subject. Not, “Yes wives should submit to their husbands as long as…” or “unles…” or “but he should…”
Wives (if you put your faith in the God of the Bible) it is your responsibility to be obedient to God through submission to your husband. It is not your responsibility to ensure that he is obeying God.
Allow me to explain through an example. Suppose I am a supervisor and I have told my employees Jamie and John to complete a report. Let’s say I have instructed John regarding what I expect from the report. I have also instructed Jamie to give John any assistance he needs to complete the report. Although Jamie’s sole responsibility is to help John, she determines John is not doing the report correctly and therefore refuses to assist him. Instead she decides to complete the report herself, causing both of them to not complete the task as it was assigned. It is not Jamie’s job to determine whether John is doing the work correctly. That is between John and his boss.
(Please note as well, Jamie did not need to empower John. John was given the power to fulfill his responsibility by his boss.)
When we appear before our Boss, we are going to need to answer for our own obedience to Him. As wives our assignment is to assist our husbands through obedience, not through determining whether or not he is worthy of obedience or whether or not he is completing his assignment correctly and correcting him where and when we deem appropriate. If he is wrong, he will answer to his Boss.
When we become wives our role is to submit and obey, therefore it is critical to be sure BEFORE marriage we are marrying a man whose judgment we trust. If you don’t trust him to make decisions, it will be difficult at best to submit. If you don’t trust him, don’t marry him in the first place. We make a commitment when we vow to love, honor, and obey…oh yeah, I forgot…we took that part out. We decided God didn’t really mean what He said.
I like your analogy Cindy. I think it really does carry the heart of the issue well. You as the supervisor delegate the roles you did not because you like John better than Jamie but because you know they are uniquely suited to their assigned roles. You are trying to create the scenario where the best report can be produced. If we also continue to expand the analogy, if Jamie did suspect that John was doing the report incorrectly, part of her role would be to approach him and discuss her concerns to see if they were valid. John would be well-advised to hear out the concerns that Jamie had to assess if they were valid but he then ultimately has the role to make the decision about moving forward. Now if John was being lazy and not doing any work toward the report, again Jamie would be responsible to talk to John about her concerns to help him do his best but if he refused to move forward it would be Jamie’s responsibility to come to you Cindy and inform you about John’s progress in hopes that your intercession will get John back on track with the report. Perhaps at that point you Cindy may put the project into Jamie’s hands, but that would be your decision and not Jamie’s.
Yep, there are a lot of things I like about this analogy.
If I can just clarify my earlier point, I was not saying that I disagreed with John’s point that wives are called to submit to their husbands. I think my previous posts on this site confirm that. What I did not think was helpful was to point to wives as the ones who caused them to sin. To me that just sounds too much like Adam’s accusation, “The woman you put here with me– she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.” (Genesis 3:12) Saying that Abram slept with Hagar because Sarai told him to neglects the role that Abram had as the leader of the family and his own responsibility for his actions. I don’t think John’s point helps men become the spiritual leaders that God has called them to be.
Jamie,
As the supervisor, in the previous example I have carefully chosen very specific roles for each of my employees. I have chosen them based on strengths and weaknesses of each and assigned them accordingly. My instructions to Jamie were to obey John. It was not for her to give her opinion regarding whether or not she thought my employee, John was obeying me. As the boss, I am fully aware of John’s compliance or lack thereof and I will take appropriate action.
Let’s shift the same analogy to a military comparison. If I were a general and I gave an order to an officer of lower rank, who gave an order to a cadet, would it be appropriate for the cadet to question the officer? If the officer did not comply with the cadet’s suggestion, should the cadet go to the general? Certainly not.
However, I grant that marriage is not the military, so I propose we take it to the Bible and find precedent there to determine our action.
To begin, John has provided us with three very sound examples wherein the husband was ill-advised to comply with his wife’s suggestion (thank you, John). In the cases of Eve and Sarah we see devastating and lasting consequences.
Next let’s examine whether there is biblical command on the issue. Let’s look to the New Testament, in order to silence any “well that no longer applies in the New Testament church” arguments.
The most appropriate example would be 1 Peter 3:1, “ 1IN LIKE manner, you married women, be submissive to your own husbands [subordinate yourselves as being secondary to and dependent on them, and adapt yourselves to them], so that even if any do not obey the Word [of God], they may be won over not by discussion but by the [godly] lives of their wives…”
First, I would point out that the introduction “In like manner” directs us to the preceding verses, which apply to situations in which submission would be challenging.
Also, in those verses as well as this one, the instruction to the wife is to bear with the husband SILENTLY. 1 Timothy 2:9-15 similarly tells us that a woman is not to teach a man (which sharing her opinion of where he is running amiss would be), but should endeavor to learn QUIETLY.
Jamie, you stated in your response, “Jamie would be responsible to talk to John about her concerns to help him do his best…” Could you please tell me your biblical justification for this statement?
As well, specifically where it applies to the marriage relationship, this approach belies a lack of understanding of the psyche of most men. Rather than pointing out what she perceives to be his failure (which is inevitably how it would be received), the wife would far more likely win the affections of her husband if she silently supported him to the best of her ability, and was there in his corner to be “a soft place to land” when he eventually fell. He may even surprise her and not fail.
The ONLY time it would be appropriate for her to express her opinion would be if he asked her. In this manner, the wife has been obedient to God by submitting to her husband, and she has supported him in a way that would best encourage his growth.
Nowhere are we commanded to function as his Holy Spirit.
We are expected to approach submission in the manner that is perhaps the most difficult for us as women – silently. For this reason, I reject the notion that submission is the “easy” way out, assuming that one is submitting in order to remove from oneself the need to make decisions.
Cindy, I love the importance you put on the instruction we receive from the Bible. That way our emotions can’t get the better of us and we have a solid place to anchor our choices and decisions. I agree that wives are instructed to submit to their husband. That is clearly stated in scripture.
You asked for a biblical justification for a wife’s responsibility to address concerns that she might have with her husband. Now as you point out, there are examples of women that thought that they had a good idea of a decision that their husband should make which were not at all good ideas. It is true that husband’s should not always take the advice their wives give them. Unfortunately, there are also many examples of men that were able to make really bad decisions on their own without any help at all from their wives. Abraham asking Sarah to lie about being married to him twice was a bad idea. Perhaps a loving word of warning from Sarah could have prevented some harmful situations that they got into with Pharaoh and Abimelech.
In 1Samuel 1 there is the story of Hannah and her husband Elkanah, the parents of Samuel. Even though Elkanah tried to console his barren wife and instruct her to be content with their family as it was, Hannah continued to plead before God for a child. She was then the one who made the decision about giving Samuel to the Lord when he was weaned to serve with Eli in the Tabernacle. Elkanah allowed her to make that decision about their family.
There is also the story of Abigail, the wife of Nabal (1Samuel 25) Nabal made a bad decision to take advantage of David’s good graces. David’s response was to mount up his men to go and destroy Nabal. Abigail not only went against her husband but also confronted David on his poor response to Nabal folly. David’s response to her was, “May you be blessed for your good judgment and for keeping me from bloodshed this day and from avenging myself with my own hands.” (vs 33) David ended up marrying her because her husband Nabal dropped dead when he heard what his wife had done. David recognized the value of a wise woman who is able to gently confront a man and help him to see the error of his ways.
I would also go to the example of Peter who wrote in his first letter that we are to, “Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men” (1Peter 2:13). Yet this is the same Peter who when instructed by the religious leaders in Jerusalem to not to speak or teach in the name of Jesus said, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God’s sight to obey you rather than God. For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.” (Acts 4:19-20) Yes, submission to authority is important but when that authority is giving instruction that is opposed to God then it is right to confront them with their error.
How you do that is addressed by Jesus in Matthew 18:15-17, “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” It is a process of speaking the truth in love (Ephesians 4:15) so that we can help encourage one another to do our best for God.
God gave Eve as a helper. Part of that role is to help point out things that a man will miss. As Ecclesiastes 3:9-12 points out, “Two is better than one” because when one falls the other can help him up. Of course that help is best given in love, not by angrily condemning him for falling. How we correct one another is crucial but it is no help to let someone go down a destructive path without giving a warning. It is a wise husband who not only listens to his wife’s perspective but invites her opinions so that he is able to make the best decisions possible. That does not mean that he will always follow his wife’s ideas but he will take it into consideration when making decisions.